FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 36 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 6
AndyLA 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
VDJ 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Recent Posts
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35572 Topics
432478 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#262881 - 07/16/07 12:33 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Leo_E_49]
badeofblade Offline
Member

Registered: 07/14/07
Posts: 46
I'm not saying that BJJ is the best, I'm saying grappling evolved out of necessity, and was pushed away due to pride. It's more effective than one may think, but not the end-all be-all. ...And the US Army doesn't do it right.
_________________________
Scientific Street Fighter|Weapon of Choice = Combat Boots|Tool of Choice = Elbows

Top
#262882 - 08/26/07 07:36 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: badeofblade]
no128s Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/26/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Fort Benning, GA
Okay, I know this thread was started a couple of years back, but I see that there are still ome people responding to it...

I am certified in Modern Army Combatives, Level 3.
I am an still on Active Duty in the US Army.
I have spent time both in the Infantry and the Special Forces.

Having established that let me say this:

Modern Army Combatives is about confidence. Agreed, Level 1 is very basic and does have its limitations and problems. Level 2 comes full circle and ends the BJJ / grappling training. Level 3 brings into play boxing, stick fighting and kick boxing. Finally there is a Level 4 which is more admin in nature and focus on how to be a trainer and how to organize training and competitions at the higher levels (brigade and up in the Army).

Modern Army Combatives is not necessarrily meant to terach Soldiers an "alternative" to lethal force. It is meant to give Soldiers the confidence that in an unarmed fight they will have methods and techniques that they can use to, "close the distance, gain dominant body position and finish the fight." Yes, we practice most of the techniques with no boots on and no gear on... no system is perfect. Modern Army Combatives gives us Army guys a system to train from within the Army, and a system of competition within the Army. Also ther are many Soldiers that use this training as a springboard into MMA fights in their local area.

Give me any system and I'll show you how it is ineffective (my kung-fu is better than yours argument). For the Army, we were looking for a system that would foster the warrior spirit, give decent baseline skills (to everyone... Infantryman, Truck Drivers, and Admin Specialists alike). The fine Soldiers of the 75th Ranger Regiment looked to a BJJ centric system that works quite well.

Oh, and BTW... knives and bayonets? I'd rather be a bad ass grappler than a bad ass knife/bayonet fighter. NO one fights with knives and bayontes, and if I do get a weapon malfunction in the heat of battle I am more likely to have nearly a dozen others around me armed to the teeth to pick up the fight before I have to put my hands on someone. In 3 combat deployments since 9/11 I have known Soldiers who have killed enemy with firearms, and one friend who used some Judo throw that broke a guys neck, but no knife fights.

De Opresso Liber
Ronin 6

Top
#262883 - 08/26/07 08:33 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: no128s]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hey, thanks for the insider perspective. So, can we assume that you feel that this training program is an improvement on the previous ones? Is there anything else that you feel could be done better, or is not being addressed?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#262884 - 08/27/07 12:38 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Matt, that is an insult, I gave you an insider's perspective, along with the MA perspective. I still feel it is a waste of training time. If they want to teach anything "combatives" they need to teach something worthwile, not add time and make PT more difficult than it already is.

Top
#262885 - 08/27/07 08:12 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
no128s Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/26/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Fort Benning, GA
Matt... yeah there are always things that can be added to make the system better. With the military you have to look at our training base methodology... we focus much of our training toward the lowest common denominator... so the more difficult or technical the system becomes, the more difficult it is to train to those who just don't get it.

Bushi_no_ki... settle down brother! I in no way was indicating that MAC is the be all and end all, only that it is better than nothing at all, and it has done a good job at unifying unarmed fighting systems in the Army. It sounds like you are in the Army there at Ft Carson, perhaps MAC has been forced on your unit by people that are "qualified" only on paper. If you are in 10th Group there then you would be familiar with LINES which is a much more devistating system, but was exclusively used (by the Army) by SF. MAC simply is a system that the "whole" Army can use with relative ease and even with lack of training equipment (weapons, etc...) and fosters what the Army is after as far as the Warrior Ethos. Your comments earlier were spot on, but sometimes we have to look at the big picture and decide what is best for all the Soldiers, not just the upper 20%.

Many times on internet forums (and I in mo way imply that this is the case here at all) people speak with good intentions about how the Army (or any other service) is doing something and they are just misinformed. My point here is to try to (1) establish that I am speaking from the position of experience (as in actually being a Soldier on active duty for nearly 18 years) and (2) just give insight to the Army's point of view. While there are issues with MAC, I do feel that the bottom line is that it is a worthwhile system for the whole Army... and it sure beats endless "buttstroke to the head series" runs of bayonet training! Heck, if your unit isn't doing it right, FIX IT! Yeah it takes soome work, but get to Level 3 so you are the trainer for your organization. It is too easy to sit back and throw stones, fixing a problem takes real character.

Top
#262886 - 08/27/07 01:31 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: no128s]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
no128s, I just noticed the SF motto at the bottom of your post. No, I'm not SF, but I am familiar with 10th Group. I have had the opportunity to work with them a couple of times and they are some good people. It just irked me that they had E7s and E8s that were younger than me.

As far as my unit goes, I and the other martial artists have fixed part of the problem. We complained so much about combatives being a waste of our time, we don't do them on a regular basis anymore. A few of us also made offers to teach a more rounded program to the Soldiers in our unit. Nothing has come of that. But, you're right, I and four other people who are martial artists should remember that the other hundred people in our company don't have any MA training outside what the military has given them. I'm just worried that the bad habits taught by the MAC instructors here on post will get them hurt or killed in a barroom brawl in downtown Springs one weekend. It would be one thing if the ground game was part of what they taught, but the ground game is all they teach until you get into the higher level certifications, and we aren't getting that level of training.

Top
#427404 - 05/27/10 09:00 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: MattJ]
Martial Arts 101 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/27/10
Posts: 1
MSG Larson.....I and completely aginst the teaching of the Modern Army Combatives Program. I've read the history of your efforts to revamp the Army's hand to hand program but you and your superiors continue to make the same fundamental mistakes that the Army makes, trying to find a shortcut to training soldiers. let me offer you a reality check....."You Cant!!!!!" If you try to take shortcuts when it comes to training in the martial arts if you try tio take shortcuts you're inviting trouble. On average (and I speak from experience) It takes 8 hours a day at a minimum, and 5 to 6 days a week to become proficent in the basics of any martial arts system, when you put this kind of time and effort into training both the body and the mind you develop 1:the muscle memory as well as the reflexes to apply the tecniques effectively without thinking about it, 2:the mental serenity as well as the mental clarity to see the true intentions of an attack.

As it stands the Army as a whole from what I've seen isn't devoting that kind time into training soldiers. then there's the question of practicality. the ground isn't the safest place to be, especailly in two types of environments 1: the battlefield 2: a bar, nightclub or the street. you are vulnerable 360 degrees in the guard position and vulnerable 180 degrees in the mounted position. Now let's add to that in the tactical environment: 1 you're wearing your full kit kevlar, ballistic eyewear, IOTV with ESAPI plates, 7 mags 1 inthe weapon the rest in ammo pouches, camelback with water, elbow and knee pads anf your weapon (in this case the M4) that's roughly 40 maybe 50 lbs ( I might be off by a few lbs)
now ask yourself if you were the average "Joe" and you got into a hand to hand situation with this kind of weight is the ground either guard or mounted really the best place to be?

You and your boss traveled to different countries throughout asia looking for something that could be readily taught to our soldiers, the trouble that you ran into was that the arts themselves were "cultural in nature" have you ever given thought to this: It isn't the art but the practitioner that makes it effective.

Last but not least the concept of the clinch drill. now the soldier has to rush into a barrage of punches while protecting their face, you're not allowed to parry the punches or re-direct them you have to move into them head on and achieve the clinch. the concept is that if you get hit you keep going, what you fail to realize is that most people won't get a "second chance" all it takes is one solid hit I.E.the one hitter quitter and all that achieve the clinch goes down the drain. When I went through the level 1 certification in Korea I parried the punch it worked and I achieved the clinch without getting my face pummeled. Matt you need to rethink this program and talor it to fit soldiers who have martial arts training as well and not just untrained soldiers.

Top
#427842 - 06/20/10 05:16 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Martial Arts 101]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Originally Posted By: Martial Arts 101
MSG Larson.....I and completely aginst the teaching of the Modern Army Combatives Program. I've read the history of your efforts to revamp the Army's hand to hand program but you and your superiors continue to make the same fundamental mistakes that the Army makes, trying to find a shortcut to training soldiers. let me offer you a reality check....."You Cant!!!!!" If you try to take shortcuts when it comes to training in the martial arts if you try tio take shortcuts you're inviting trouble. On average (and I speak from experience) It takes 8 hours a day at a minimum, and 5 to 6 days a week to become proficent in the basics of any martial arts system, when you put this kind of time and effort into training both the body and the mind you develop 1:the muscle memory as well as the reflexes to apply the tecniques effectively without thinking about it, 2:the mental serenity as well as the mental clarity to see the true intentions of an attack.

As it stands the Army as a whole from what I've seen isn't devoting that kind time into training soldiers. then there's the question of practicality. the ground isn't the safest place to be, especailly in two types of environments 1: the battlefield 2: a bar, nightclub or the street. you are vulnerable 360 degrees in the guard position and vulnerable 180 degrees in the mounted position. Now let's add to that in the tactical environment: 1 you're wearing your full kit kevlar, ballistic eyewear, IOTV with ESAPI plates, 7 mags 1 inthe weapon the rest in ammo pouches, camelback with water, elbow and knee pads anf your weapon (in this case the M4) that's roughly 40 maybe 50 lbs ( I might be off by a few lbs)
now ask yourself if you were the average "Joe" and you got into a hand to hand situation with this kind of weight is the ground either guard or mounted really the best place to be?

You and your boss traveled to different countries throughout asia looking for something that could be readily taught to our soldiers, the trouble that you ran into was that the arts themselves were "cultural in nature" have you ever given thought to this: It isn't the art but the practitioner that makes it effective.

Last but not least the concept of the clinch drill. now the soldier has to rush into a barrage of punches while protecting their face, you're not allowed to parry the punches or re-direct them you have to move into them head on and achieve the clinch. the concept is that if you get hit you keep going, what you fail to realize is that most people won't get a "second chance" all it takes is one solid hit I.E.the one hitter quitter and all that achieve the clinch goes down the drain. When I went through the level 1 certification in Korea I parried the punch it worked and I achieved the clinch without getting my face pummeled. Matt you need to rethink this program and talor it to fit soldiers who have martial arts training as well and not just untrained soldiers.



The Army has to take a shortcut to training hand to hand combat because the Army doesn't have the time available to train it the way you recommend. We have more important things to train like tactics and marksmanship. Whether the Army uses Karate, BJJ, MT, or whatever, it will never train that much other than for maybe a week or a couple weeks for Cert. Why spend hours on that crap when you can spend hours teaching guys to shoot and clear rooms properly. I graduated from basic in April 2009 and went to Iraq July 2009. I'm Infantry. Training that much on ANY system of h2h would've been disastrous. Our training for the deployment was sub standard as it is.
That being said you can make guys pretty effective in short time. Just ask Paul Vunak. You don't have to spend 8 hours a day 5 days a week for years to be a good enough fighter to survive in most situations. An hour or two a day for a couple months, with the right drills, can at least enable guys to survive if they somehow find themselves without weapons. Luckily the liklihood that you'll find yourself completely unarmed in combat agaisnt another guy either armed or not is nill. War isn't mma. If I run out of ammo or my weapon jams and the other guy is up close I'm using my m4 to muzzle thump and butt stroke the guy until he's unrecognizable.

If that isn't an option I'll grab a rock, or my knife, or SOMETHING. There's always something you can use as a weapon which is always better than being unarmed. MAC isn't great but it's not bad, it builds aggression and toughness.
Including some boxing in lvl 1 would be nice but whatever, most guys do that anyway.

You'll probably never end up in that situation. If you do like I said there's always something else to use as a weapon or buddies to help you. If you are a soldier and end up fighting unarmed you're an idiot. It's easier to kill someone or disable someone with your rifle or a stick even then your fists (although some of the hard knuckle tactical gloves out there are pretty good for that if I might add). It's true you don't want to go to the ground in that situation, especially with so much crap on, but trust me you won't even CONSIDER doing it with all that weight. It definitely removes the desire to go to the ground purposefully.

At least they teach how to choke a guy out right away. If you get into a bar room brawl throw something at the dude, kick him in the balls throw him down and choke his a@@ out. If he has buddies and you don't bother to pick up a weapon, once again you're an idiot.

About the clinch drill, you are way off, you CAN block or parry, and you CAN re-direct. I did lvl 1 last year with the clinch drill and not once did they say you can't do any of that, you just can't hit them (which makes no sense). You said yourself you parried a punch to get the clinch. Most guys find it's faster and safer to just "crash" in and clinch instead of moving around. The longer they spend swinging at you the more likely they are to connect. Now if you can hit back then it's more logical to move and look for a shot.

Still, the fact you can't hit while attempting the clinch, and aren't taught striking at all till lvl 3 is stupid. I like MAC though much of it makes sense. I'd rather they teach RAT with slightly ,ore basicd groundfighting involved. all in all it doesn't really matter because warfare is martial arts or mma. This isn't a street brawl. It's "die die die"...

You say it's the practioner not the art so why are you criticising MAC anyway? According to that statement it shouldn't matter. A bit contradictory I think.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#427856 - 06/21/10 07:44 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
If it was up to me, the only changes I would make to lvl 1 would be instead of spending half of test day making everyone demonstrate every step of a few of the techniques, talking through it detail by detail, spend that half of the day teaching fundamental boxing or muay thai and how to use it to work into a clinch, then put both instructor and trainee in mma gloves and light face masks, allow both to hit and then have the trainee work for the clinch.

I would put in a time limit for how long a trainee can stay disengaged and striking lest they fail so they don't sit there and do the Mohammed Ali thing and float like a butterfly all day. I also only like one clinch they teach. I hate that thing where you go behind, tuck your head in their back and grab their hips and I don't care much for the underhooks. I would teach the thai clinch and the 3rd one they currently teach where you have two arms on one of their arms and your head in their chest (can't think of the name). Heck maybe just teach guys to straight blast (or boxing blast whichever or both) using RAT as the starting point. Otherwise I think all the groundfighting is good. If for some reason you end up in an h2h situation in combat however unlikely it'll probably be in a tight room and include a lot of grappling so it's good to know how to handle some trying to throw you down or getting on top of you. More likely they'll just grab with one hand and stab you with the other or try to grab your weapon.

Which brings me to another point-quit the stupid bayonet stuff and teach weapons retention and just muzzle thumping and butt stroking on bags a lot. That's a lot more likely to happen. Seriously, we spent two hours one day just doing stab and slash combos against air. We didn't even do the bayonet assault course. Talk about a waste of time.

Hey Bushi, just get a group together and go to the gym, pull out mats and train on your own from time to time, that's what we did in Iraq. Sometimes it was only 2 or 3 of us but it helped. Why do you need the whole command to be involved once your got rid of the stuff you didn't like? Good job getting your way with the leadership btw, that never would've happened for us.


Edited by Stormdragon (06/21/10 07:46 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
#428445 - 07/20/10 10:24 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Martial Arts 101]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Just to clarify: MattJ is not MSG Matt Larson.
_________________________
Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga