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#261938 - 06/09/06 01:46 PM Cultural values
aoishi Offline
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Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Do some cultures create better humans?
By better, I mean kinder, more compassionate, more thoughtful, humble, wiser, etc.

No, I'm serious.
This is a throwdown to all you cultural relativists out there. I don't want this to get mired down in an argument about what is a good human, either. We should be able to arrive at a reasonable consensus on what good values are.

I'm looking forward to everyone's thoughts on the issue.

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#261939 - 06/09/06 02:54 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
kusojiji Offline
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uh-oh

I smell socialist determinism coming...
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#261940 - 06/09/06 03:16 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
butterfly Offline
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Can't do it, just can't do it. I am one of those relativists and without some guidelines to assume qualitive ideas within...or without...a particular culture, you get nowhere.

A good Roman of 1,500 years ago would not necessarily make a good European today. It's all in the context.

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#261941 - 06/10/06 01:47 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
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Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Do some cultures create better humans?
By better, I mean kinder, more compassionate, more thoughtful, humble, wiser, etc.




Nope. The only difference is how open they are about faults and the different kinds of masks people put on.

That of course is if you're talking about the whole country's "average moral level"

Within a society however, there is always a "bias." That is, if someone is a "bad person" they will be usually rejected. This leads eventually to unemployment and possible jail time (depending on the reason for their rejection by society). Then if they had kids, the majority of the time (not all) kids take after their parents in some way. By doing that they can start a cycle of a "clan" or group that is cointinously trapped in a vicious cycle.

But as far as whole societies creating better people than other societies, no.

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#261942 - 06/10/06 02:07 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
butterfly Offline
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Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Speedy,

I agree more or less, but you still have to qualify what "faults" are. These definitions are tenable only from within the society being examined, not externally...though one could make an argument for certain aspects of generally accepted pan-cultural mores.

I mean, if your in a culture that allows cannabilism...What's a good cannibal?

A good murderer and hunter of other folk not part of your culture, that's who. And that stuff outside of your tribal acceptacnce is kind of frowned upon, but you get kudos within your society for spearing and stewing the wandering 18th century sea captain. But it's ix-nay on the eating of human flesh, the other white meat, in most places.

So whose morals? And who do you consider right? Depends on where and how you live.

-B

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#261943 - 06/10/06 04:50 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: butterfly]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
As for "who's morals are right", to save time look at my posts here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...3/#Post15859714

You bring up an interesting point with the cannabilism. However, you may also note that those societies (generally not all) had less "sexual immorality" and cannabilism was sort of a once in a while thing. Each place has its own unique faults. If we compare cannabilism, in its most basic sense, it started as a resort from starvation. In the world in general people get screwed over in many, many ways for the sake of making money. Look at how Microsoft "cannabilized" so many companies. Now I'm not saying they're the same thing, but the concept is the same, and each society has a different "major" fault of morals.

I heard some say that Japanese are more polite. However, even the Japanese say that in Japan they feel like they have to put on a mask all the time. They are not open about issues, outsiders don't ask and are openly polite, but as soon as suspicion arises people talk behind each other's backs and it's like that person is marked. They imagine things about what could be going on and thus rumors go crazy - not very "polite" to talk behind someone's back.

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#261944 - 06/10/06 01:18 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
kusojiji Offline
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Posts: 648
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Quote:

However, even the Japanese say that in Japan they feel like they have to put on a mask all the time. They are not open about issues, outsiders don't ask and are openly polite, but as soon as suspicion arises people talk behind each other's backs and it's like that person is marked. They imagine things about what could be going on and thus rumors go crazy - not very "polite" to talk behind someone's back.





Who is "they"? Which Japanese people are you talking about?
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#261945 - 06/10/06 11:17 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

You bring up an interesting point with the cannabilism. However, you may also note that those societies (generally not all) had less "sexual immorality" and cannabilism was sort of a once in a while thing. Each place has its own unique faults




Speedy, again, whose to say that their sexual proclivities are immoral or not? This is a subjective view proscribed by your sensibilities, not theirs.

The comments that you are making, if you are not aware of it with respect to other cultures and their morals... and in the conext of the Japanese statements, are too general to count and are ethnocentric.

What you are doing is using your experience as a baramoter to judge others and what is, or is not, construed as acceptable behavior.

This is my point of relativisim. You have to be within a particular culture in order to define its moral limitations and attributes. If you are exclusive to it, then what you say is only measured against your accepted norms and thus holds little water with regards to the inhabitants of these societies...since you can leave and are not impacted by the forces in that culture to act a certain way for acceptance within that society.

You know the saying, Judge not lest ye be judged.

No harm or foul, but you gotta be a player on the team to yell at the coach.

-B

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#261946 - 06/10/06 11:24 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Aoshi,

Quote:

This is a throwdown to all you cultural relativists out there. I don't want this to get mired down in an argument about what is a good human, either. We should be able to arrive at a reasonable consensus on what good values are.





Some folks in the past have considered seven virtues. Four of the virtues being referred to as Cardinal. Cardinal comes from "Cardo" of hinge or pivitol. A second catagory was referred to as theological.

The cardinal
Prudence
Temperance
Justice
Fortitude

Theolgical Virtures (considered to be imbued by a creator)

Faith
Hope
Charity

Following those we have what are the capital virtues that
correspond to what are considered sin. "Sin" in the original laguages discribes an arrow missing the center of a target.

The Capital virtues

Humilty/ Pride
Liberality/ Avarice
Brotherly Love/ envy
Meekness/ Wrath
Chastity/ Lust
Temperance/ gluttony
Diligence/ Sloth

A Cannibal can be virtuous. His tempation to be gluttonous is probably no greater than ours.

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#261947 - 06/10/06 11:34 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Mark,

Those Capital Virtues...wow. I didn't know there were Seven other Dwarves....

Faith, Hope and Charity were triplettes I once knew.

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#261948 - 06/10/06 11:42 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: butterfly]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
What is the one capital virtue that no one can claim for themselves?

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#261949 - 06/10/06 11:44 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
BTW my wife and daughters are watching "Sweet Charity" as we speak.

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#261950 - 06/10/06 11:54 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

What is the one capital virtue that no one can claim for themselves?




Brotherly love? Although, aren't they all dependant on having an other, to reference them? Bubba Lee has a lot of humility compared to Sparky Luke....., etc.

Apologies if I am missing the point. I don't have a philosophical bone in my body, and probably shouldn't even be here.
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#261951 - 06/10/06 11:59 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Humility To claim it would disqualify you.

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#261952 - 06/11/06 12:07 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Wait, what if you were Honestly Humble....and some guy asked this of you?

Wouldn't you be a liar if you said, "Nah, I ain't humble"?

So, humility is a virtue that you can't discuss....honestly?

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#261953 - 06/11/06 12:18 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: butterfly]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
People could talk about it but just try it... I am a very humble person...eeewww. Someone might say it of someone else but of themselves? Maybe Im wrong.

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#261954 - 06/11/06 12:23 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Me thinks thou protests too much....and to damn with feint praise....

Well, well.

Yeah, I guess it would be too prideful to discuss one's humility. But how do you get out of it when someone asks you up front: "Hey, are you usually humble?"

I don't have that problem...not humble, but too ugly for anyone to care!

Hey, have a good one! And nice to see you popping up here once in awhile.

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#261955 - 06/11/06 12:43 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: butterfly]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Quote:

You bring up an interesting point with the cannabilism. However, you may also note that those societies (generally not all) had less "sexual immorality" and cannabilism was sort of a once in a while thing. Each place has its own unique faults




Speedy, again, whose to say that their sexual proclivities are immoral or not? This is a subjective view proscribed by your sensibilities, not theirs.

The comments that you are making, if you are not aware of it with respect to other cultures and their morals... and in the conext of the Japanese statements, are too general to count and are ethnocentric.

What you are doing is using your experience as a baramoter to judge others and what is, or is not, construed as acceptable behavior.

This is my point of relativisim. You have to be within a particular culture in order to define its moral limitations and attributes. If you are exclusive to it, then what you say is only measured against your accepted norms and thus holds little water with regards to the inhabitants of these societies...since you can leave and are not impacted by the forces in that culture to act a certain way for acceptance within that society.

You know the saying, Judge not lest ye be judged.

No harm or foul, but you gotta be a player on the team to yell at the coach.

-B




Well actually everything I stated about the Japanese part of my post is basically a quote/paraphrase of what my Japanese friends say. At my school I work with the Japanese club and many of them are students from Japan and they say that when I ask them to compare other places with Japan. They actually complain about that aspect of their culture, and actually in the music industry in Japan a lot of people are trying to send a message in their songs against that way.

I'm not judging the Japanese, I'm trusting what they all tell me (and I never heard anyone from Japan say different)

As for the subjectivity - if you want to play subjective then there are no morals and everyone is right in their situation since their actions are based on their thinking and so no one is wrong.

IE most would agree that murder is wrong but how many duels were perfectly okay and not considered murder throughout history?
And to a more extreme subjective idea, if I think that killing someone who looks at me wrong is the "moral" thing to do and tolerable, then would it be "okay" for me to kill?

So if you want to be sujective there are no morals and anyone who says so is brainwashed by cutlure and society.

Which of course isn't true.

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#261956 - 06/11/06 12:46 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: butterfly]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Humility isn't considered a virtue by all societies - some see it as weakness, and favor boldness as a virtue.

But you're right - it's very hard to discuss one's own humility honestly - I've seen people do it but it's kind of awkwardly stated and only after years of knowing them.

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#261957 - 06/11/06 12:51 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

IE most would agree that murder is wrong but how many duels were perfectly okay and not considered murder throughout history?




A duel is not murder. It is a contest to death. Both participants consent to the outcome. It is more akin to Suicide but that is a different argument.

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#261958 - 06/11/06 03:01 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Well actually everything I stated about the Japanese part of my post is basically a quote/paraphrase of what my Japanese friends say. At my school I work with the Japanese club and many of them are students from Japan and they say that when I ask them to compare other places with Japan. They actually complain about that aspect of their culture,




Its funny if you think about it, but if someone who didn't know alot about America moved to Cambridge, Massachusetts and talked to a certain segment of the population there they might 'know' how Americans feel about this or that, but if they landed in Lubbock, Texas and spoke to a certain segment of the population there, they might 'know' something quite different about how people feel about the country. Just sayin'
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#261959 - 06/11/06 06:20 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: kusojiji]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
lol true.

But I've lived in LA, New York, and Arizona, and even based on seeing the many Japanese students who just moved from Japan, they seem to "relax" after living here for just a few years, and then they say that about their society. I am planning to go to Japan within the next few years since my grandpa lives there and all (long story, WWII) so I will see for myself, but even from comparing Korea to Japan, my dad says Japan "feels like wearing a necktie that's 1" too short"

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#261960 - 06/11/06 06:23 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
edited by moderator harlan

SG: please keep the subject PG, if not PC.


Edited by harlan (06/12/06 08:43 AM)

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#261961 - 06/11/06 11:18 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Boldness and humility are not opposites. As far .......(reference to SG post edited by harlan...sorry oldman).. You might consider researching to find a culture that values stupidity. If your search is fruitful, consider moving there.


Edited by harlan (06/12/06 08:45 AM)

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#261962 - 06/11/06 01:11 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
kusojiji Offline
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Quote:

I am planning to go to Japan within the next few years




Well, good, because you might be better served by witholding that kind of judgment until you have some significant first-hand experience to base it upon.

What might be more interesting to discuss here (and less likely to result in unfortunate stereotyping) is how everyone feels and acts differently when living outside their native cultural context.
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#261963 - 06/11/06 01:57 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: kusojiji]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
A dicey topic, with some less than responsible responses. My initial trigger finger was to delete...but I need time to think about editing. Will return.


Edited by MattJ (06/11/06 08:47 PM)

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#261964 - 06/11/06 11:37 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: harlan]
kusojiji Offline
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Quote:

A dicey topic, with some less than responsible responses. My initial trigger finger was to delete...but I need time to think about editing. Will return.




Is that why it seemed to have vanished a few hours ago?

I was confused (not a difficult state for me to achieve...)
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#261965 - 06/12/06 06:14 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320

totally off topic




Back to lesss risky ground. As far as boldness and humility, yes, you're right. I will expand on what I meant later


Edited by harlan (06/13/06 11:31 AM)

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#261966 - 06/12/06 06:17 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: kusojiji]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Quote:

I am planning to go to Japan within the next few years




Well, good, because you might be better served by witholding that kind of judgment until you have some significant first-hand experience to base it upon.

What might be more interesting to discuss here (and less likely to result in unfortunate stereotyping) is how everyone feels and acts differently when living outside their native cultural context.




I didn't judge these cultures and I wasn't stereotyping, I was reporting what my Japanese friends told me. They are having big musical movements on this for the past few years in Japan too, if you are into the J-music scene.

As far as how people feel and act outside their native context, they were here for college, and moved back to Japan. They report they feel a new perspective in life (similar to how some Americans feel when studying abroad for a term). They said they will keep some terms of traditional politeness, but at their core will not have a mask any more. If that's how they feel, more power to them

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#261967 - 06/12/06 08:13 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

As far as boldness and humility, yes, you're right. I will expand on what I meant later




Please don't.

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#261968 - 06/12/06 09:47 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
SG: so far you have posted some personal opinions as controversial analogies. Unless you can cite reams of academic/ethnographic material to substantiate your opinion, I would prefer that this thread move in a different direction.

Any other comments?

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#261969 - 06/12/06 09:47 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Quote:

As far as boldness and humility, yes, you're right. I will expand on what I meant later




Please don't.




I like your respectfulnes.

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#261970 - 06/12/06 09:51 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: harlan]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

SG: so far you have posted some personal opinions as controversial analogies. Unless you can cite reams of academic/ethnographic material to substantiate your opinion, I would prefer that this thread move in a different direction.




Just so it's clear, can you give an example of what would be "ethnographic" material? I have a hard time believing a scholar studying Japan over Japanese people who have lived in Japan there all their lives.

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#261971 - 06/12/06 10:01 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
How about you just drop it with the controversy instead?

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#261972 - 06/12/06 10:05 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: harlan]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
What's controversial about quoting Japanese students talking about their own comparison of Japan and America?

If you really want to drop controversy, how can this thread even amke sense? It's about comparing societies asking if one culture promotes "better" people than another - what part of that isn't controversial in and of itself?

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#261973 - 06/12/06 10:10 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
kusojiji Offline
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Quote:

What's controversial about quoting Japanese students talking about their own comparison of Japan and America?

If you really want to drop controversy, how can this thread even amke sense? It's about comparing societies asking if one culture promotes "better" people than another - what part of that isn't controversial in and of itself?




Here's an idea: why not focus your comments on your own culture rather than another that you only have very limited first hand experience with? That might work.
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#261974 - 06/12/06 10:21 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
That was not respect. It was a fruitless attemp to quell futher lunacy.

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#261975 - 06/12/06 10:24 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
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I think a judicious cool down might be in order.

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