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#261938 - 06/09/06 01:46 PM Cultural values
aoishi Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 123
Loc: Massachusetts
Do some cultures create better humans?
By better, I mean kinder, more compassionate, more thoughtful, humble, wiser, etc.

No, I'm serious.
This is a throwdown to all you cultural relativists out there. I don't want this to get mired down in an argument about what is a good human, either. We should be able to arrive at a reasonable consensus on what good values are.

I'm looking forward to everyone's thoughts on the issue.

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#261939 - 06/09/06 02:54 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
uh-oh

I smell socialist determinism coming...
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#261940 - 06/09/06 03:16 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Can't do it, just can't do it. I am one of those relativists and without some guidelines to assume qualitive ideas within...or without...a particular culture, you get nowhere.

A good Roman of 1,500 years ago would not necessarily make a good European today. It's all in the context.

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#261941 - 06/10/06 01:47 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Do some cultures create better humans?
By better, I mean kinder, more compassionate, more thoughtful, humble, wiser, etc.




Nope. The only difference is how open they are about faults and the different kinds of masks people put on.

That of course is if you're talking about the whole country's "average moral level"

Within a society however, there is always a "bias." That is, if someone is a "bad person" they will be usually rejected. This leads eventually to unemployment and possible jail time (depending on the reason for their rejection by society). Then if they had kids, the majority of the time (not all) kids take after their parents in some way. By doing that they can start a cycle of a "clan" or group that is cointinously trapped in a vicious cycle.

But as far as whole societies creating better people than other societies, no.

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#261942 - 06/10/06 02:07 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Speedy,

I agree more or less, but you still have to qualify what "faults" are. These definitions are tenable only from within the society being examined, not externally...though one could make an argument for certain aspects of generally accepted pan-cultural mores.

I mean, if your in a culture that allows cannabilism...What's a good cannibal?

A good murderer and hunter of other folk not part of your culture, that's who. And that stuff outside of your tribal acceptacnce is kind of frowned upon, but you get kudos within your society for spearing and stewing the wandering 18th century sea captain. But it's ix-nay on the eating of human flesh, the other white meat, in most places.

So whose morals? And who do you consider right? Depends on where and how you live.

-B

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#261943 - 06/10/06 04:50 AM Re: Cultural values [Re: butterfly]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
As for "who's morals are right", to save time look at my posts here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...3/#Post15859714

You bring up an interesting point with the cannabilism. However, you may also note that those societies (generally not all) had less "sexual immorality" and cannabilism was sort of a once in a while thing. Each place has its own unique faults. If we compare cannabilism, in its most basic sense, it started as a resort from starvation. In the world in general people get screwed over in many, many ways for the sake of making money. Look at how Microsoft "cannabilized" so many companies. Now I'm not saying they're the same thing, but the concept is the same, and each society has a different "major" fault of morals.

I heard some say that Japanese are more polite. However, even the Japanese say that in Japan they feel like they have to put on a mask all the time. They are not open about issues, outsiders don't ask and are openly polite, but as soon as suspicion arises people talk behind each other's backs and it's like that person is marked. They imagine things about what could be going on and thus rumors go crazy - not very "polite" to talk behind someone's back.

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#261944 - 06/10/06 01:18 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

However, even the Japanese say that in Japan they feel like they have to put on a mask all the time. They are not open about issues, outsiders don't ask and are openly polite, but as soon as suspicion arises people talk behind each other's backs and it's like that person is marked. They imagine things about what could be going on and thus rumors go crazy - not very "polite" to talk behind someone's back.





Who is "they"? Which Japanese people are you talking about?
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#261945 - 06/10/06 11:17 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

You bring up an interesting point with the cannabilism. However, you may also note that those societies (generally not all) had less "sexual immorality" and cannabilism was sort of a once in a while thing. Each place has its own unique faults




Speedy, again, whose to say that their sexual proclivities are immoral or not? This is a subjective view proscribed by your sensibilities, not theirs.

The comments that you are making, if you are not aware of it with respect to other cultures and their morals... and in the conext of the Japanese statements, are too general to count and are ethnocentric.

What you are doing is using your experience as a baramoter to judge others and what is, or is not, construed as acceptable behavior.

This is my point of relativisim. You have to be within a particular culture in order to define its moral limitations and attributes. If you are exclusive to it, then what you say is only measured against your accepted norms and thus holds little water with regards to the inhabitants of these societies...since you can leave and are not impacted by the forces in that culture to act a certain way for acceptance within that society.

You know the saying, Judge not lest ye be judged.

No harm or foul, but you gotta be a player on the team to yell at the coach.

-B

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#261946 - 06/10/06 11:24 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: aoishi]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Aoshi,

Quote:

This is a throwdown to all you cultural relativists out there. I don't want this to get mired down in an argument about what is a good human, either. We should be able to arrive at a reasonable consensus on what good values are.





Some folks in the past have considered seven virtues. Four of the virtues being referred to as Cardinal. Cardinal comes from "Cardo" of hinge or pivitol. A second catagory was referred to as theological.

The cardinal
Prudence
Temperance
Justice
Fortitude

Theolgical Virtures (considered to be imbued by a creator)

Faith
Hope
Charity

Following those we have what are the capital virtues that
correspond to what are considered sin. "Sin" in the original laguages discribes an arrow missing the center of a target.

The Capital virtues

Humilty/ Pride
Liberality/ Avarice
Brotherly Love/ envy
Meekness/ Wrath
Chastity/ Lust
Temperance/ gluttony
Diligence/ Sloth

A Cannibal can be virtuous. His tempation to be gluttonous is probably no greater than ours.

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#261947 - 06/10/06 11:34 PM Re: Cultural values [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Mark,

Those Capital Virtues...wow. I didn't know there were Seven other Dwarves....

Faith, Hope and Charity were triplettes I once knew.

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