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#260074 - 06/04/06 02:41 PM The Sport Side of Taekwondo
ChronicGMV Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 96
Loc: Miami, Florida
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2zPrI0s2bEg


I just thought you guys might be interested in this video. I'm a little confused about their dark fist (is that the name?) program. They have it so they can fix mistakes in the person's technique, but it doesn't seem they emphasize guarding.. Anyone mind telling me why (if this is how all sport oriented WTF TKD schools work) they don't emphasize guarding? I'm not saying these guys are bad fighters (they win Olympic medals after all), but I'd think for a person on the Olympic team, they'd be taught to block. But yeah, this video is pretty interesting. Do you guys think this is an accurate description of the sport side of TKD?

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#260075 - 06/04/06 03:39 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: ChronicGMV]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
The first thing to point out is that I do not believe this is at all representative of TKD at large- that group is completely sport oriented, to a point where it is not really seen as a martial art by those who practice it.

Having said that, if you view it as a representation of sports TKD, then it is a shining example of how modern technology can be used to improve athletic performance. The video technology they made a big deal about has been used in other sports for a number of years now, and in boxing since the 80s.

If you want to take part in the olympic games there's no better place to go. If you want to learn how to defend yourself, then there's no worse, except perhaps ballet.

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#260076 - 06/04/06 04:03 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: ChronicGMV]
theoldone Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172
Take a look at this post from some time ago. Might help explain things a bit:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15835601


Quote:

but I'd think for a person on the Olympic team, they'd be taught to block.




Not really. For various reasons, some of which were stated in the above post. Here are a couple more reasons:

1. In a game of speed, blocking slows you down. The jarring effect of a block affects your attacking/counteratacking momentum. In addition, blocking usually involves a "1-2" rhythm (block-then-counter). By the time you're done with the 1- the oponent's already gone. Unless you judiciously use the block as a strike once in a while (Judiciously because if you do it all the time, the chief referee can penalize you with "conduct unbecoming")

2. In most tournaments, a competitor has to fight a series of bouts before he gets to the final. If he blocks full-power kicks all the time in every bout, he's going to have some very sore arms, to say the least, and make it difficult to go all the way to the final. As he carries on with subsequent bouts, he'll start to get concerned with preventing anymore "shocks" to his arms, and will tend to (unconsciously) focus more on preventing pain than on what's needed to win. I see that a lot with new competitors.

The experienced competitors know better and prefer to stay as fresh as possible, so they don't block indiscrimately. They'll block only when they absolutely have to.

As with any other sport, sport Taekwondo requires a competitor to have game-plan specific to sport Taekwondo in order to do well. Part of that game-plan calls for not blocking unless when absolutely unavoidable.
_________________________
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#260077 - 06/04/06 04:04 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: Supremor]
bin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 169
Loc: NJ, USA
What? Supremor ..... So are you saying that WTF Taekwondo (combat SPORT) is ineffective? So do you t3h r3al TKD then? *rolls eyes*.

WTF Taekwondo IS A SPORT JUST AS BOXING IS A SPORT!!!!!. So is boxing ineffective? No.

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#260078 - 06/04/06 04:07 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: Supremor]
theoldone Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172
Quote:

If you want to learn how to defend yourself, then there's no worse




How so, Supremor?
_________________________
We Are Beautiful, Temporary Patterns

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#260079 - 06/04/06 04:15 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: theoldone]
ChronicGMV Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 96
Loc: Miami, Florida
Why don't they just condition their arms to block kicks then? In my TKD school, they do full contact, and I've never been in pain when blocking continuously, even after having a kid trying to run me in and I don't even wear a forearm protector. There are some kicks I understand that you should try to avoid blocking, but simple roundhouses, sidekicks, and whatnot, these can be blocked..

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#260080 - 06/04/06 04:47 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: theoldone]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
ok, ok, i'll explain before world war 3 starts.

I am not disputing that sports Taekwondo serves a purpose in martial arts, indeed I agree that it can be very useful in teaching good fighting skills. However, my problem is with this specific training program.

The USA TKD team has only one purpose- to win medals. To do this it need have no concern over whether what it's teaching is useful to Self Defense. Not only this, but many of the strategies that are employed by the trainers are specifically related to winning tournament taekwondo under olympic rules.

What I am trying to point out, is that the bottom line of this centre of excellence is sport. Self defense is not even considered at this place. We are talking about high level sport here, not high level fighting.

Again I have to stress, that I am not criticising sport TKD itself. It can be very beneficial, IF it is taught along with other skills- more hand work, a splattering of grappling and groundfighting etc. Perhaps I should not have used the term "worse", since it can be used to teach a certain number of skills. But someone who has only trained TKD for sport is setting themselves up for a serious fall.

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#260081 - 06/04/06 04:51 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: ChronicGMV]
theoldone Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172
I knew you'd ask that

OK, have you ever blocked a really powerful roundhouse/turning kick thrown by a top-level competitor? It's no fun, trust me. You don't want to do that for 2 minutes, 3 rounds (or 3 minutes, 2 rounds, or whatever, depending on the organizer) for 4, 5, 6, 7 bouts. You'd be stacking the odds against yourself by slowing yourself unnecessarily.

Now to come to your question. Would you try something with me here? OK, notice how you were not afraid to block because you thought it didn't hurt? Even when some kid tried to run you down and you were't even wearing arm protectors.

Great confidence. Now imagine someone who has become very good at blocking and fears (or feels) no pain when blocking. Very confident of his blocking ability, and therefore confident that he can handle himself in any match. So what does he focus on in a match?

What he does best: Blocking.

Yes I know he's not stupid. He will, of course, try to score. But the very nature of his "notion" of doing well in competition is entirely different from the what is required to win: score.

He thinks that because he is preventing the opponent from scoring on him that he's doing well. But preventing the opponent from scoring is not the same as actually scoring points.

It is scoring points (or getting a KO or TKO) that wins the game, not blocking. I've seen this many, many times with numerous would-be competitors. Don't fall into the same "trap".

In fact, personally, if I was presiding at a selection to pick a team for WTF competition, and a competitor blocks extensively throughout his matches, I would not select him. Why? Because he is unnecessarily stacking the odds against himself.

However, don't make the mistake of thinking that WTF competitors don't condition their hands, and don't think that they don't have blocking techniques for competition. They do, but those look and work very differently from the "traditional" blocks. When you get to the stage where you're ready for serious competitions, your coach should be able to help you there.

In the meantime, you're on the right track. You're keen to learn, and have a goal. Go for it

Quote:

Why don't they just condition their arms to block kicks then? In my TKD school, they do full contact, and I've never been in pain when blocking continuously, even after having a kid trying to run me in and I don't even wear a forearm protector. There are some kicks I understand that you should try to avoid blocking, but simple roundhouses, sidekicks, and whatnot, these can be blocked..


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We Are Beautiful, Temporary Patterns

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#260082 - 06/04/06 05:27 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: ChronicGMV]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Great clip. Coach Juan Moreno is on there, he heads that program along with Jean Lopez. They both work with Herb Perez who is the head of the UST.

Juan Moreno is the coach who I mentioned who brought the Elite Athlete development program to our school which I mentioned in my other thread for those who took the time to read it.

One of our students James Howe II, left this month to move to florida to train with those athletes. He is part of that elite program, representing california.

Chronic, that is an accurate description of sports taekwondo, durring sparring there is no blocking because everything is going so fast, you have no time to. Athletes use avoid and evading tactics. As you can see a traditional block would not work against the speed and combination of those kicks. That clip is a perfect example of the elete athlete in the united states.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#260083 - 06/04/06 06:15 PM Re: The Sport Side of Taekwondo [Re: TeK9]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Im a bit confused about something.

The round kick they were doing on the paddles or the big pad that was middle sometimes high and in most of the sparring ...was that the half roundkick you WTF guys were talking about in another thread?

That kick we call a 45 kick where i train...a sports 45 kick.....id just like to know what WTF a call it so i dont get confused on here..lol
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