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#259993 - 06/09/06 12:35 PM Re: are you serious..... [Re: pepto_bismol]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Pepto

Actually if nothing else this can start to serve as means of education--mainly for folks that have a poor grasp of logic and rational thought.

If Speedy knows something the rest of don't then--then the burden of proof is upon HIM to present it.
When claims are made its the duty of the claiment to prove he/she is correct---not "our" job to prove they are not correct.

Most important however is the serious logical error made by yourself and Speedy.

You both extend the arguement that unless we poll each and every single martial artist in japan on the subject and each and every one of them gives us the "same" answer then you guys are "right."

Sorry to say that simply is not he case.

That "some" guys "may" have used a jo may or may not be correct--but what is known is that MOST of them did not.

If the had it would be pretty common info that they did so.

So finding a couple of guys that used a jo instead of bokken/sword is really not that surpriseing.

I know people that refuse to have any electrical wiring in their rual homes---does not make it the "norm."

And the "norm" is what is in question here.

Another thing that you might consider is that the Ban in question applied to the PRACTICE of martial arts itself--not just specifc weapons.

By this I mean that training in martial arts PERIOD was kinda questionable--regardless of weapon.

Some did not care, some were very quiet about it and some put their training "on hold" until the ban was lifted.

I mean no disrespect and I have no animus toward you--seriously.

Just trying to help.


Edited by cxt (06/09/06 12:37 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#259994 - 06/09/06 02:43 PM Re: are you serious..... [Re: pepto_bismol]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Just because they have never "mentioned" it doesn't mean that they never "did" it. Speedy could know something we don't, and arguing about it is completely pointless because unless you know and asked every sensei and practitioner in Japan whether they used a jo instaid of a sword during the sword ban, you will never know whether it happened or not.



Dear pepto,
This is a prime example of what I was referring to as "young people's emotional outbursts." You took offense to that particular statement of mine, not sure why, and proceeded to post something absolutely illogical in response. You either disregarded the original argument, or didn't bother to read and understand the posts. Either way your statement made no logical sense, and was simply an emotional outburst in response to one particular statement.

I'll try and explain ...
The original statement was ...
"Sword arts were banned even in Japan post WWII, and that's exactly what people did, use jo as an alternative."

This implies that the Japanese people used jo as an alternative to their sword practice, to which I responded that this was NOT what I understood to have happened, and I had never heard anything like this. Mine was a statement of fact based upon my experiences. Speedy, rather than explaining fully how he came to that conclusion, proceeded to get upset, wiggle around his statement, and finally try to change what I originally said. He never offered any sort of proof or backing to his original statement, so I had to conclude that he made it up.

Now, you have arrived and made the same sort of emotionally laden statement as Speedy by suggesting that my experiences are at fault, since I hadn't personally interviewed everyone involved in the Japanese sword arts during WWII. That fact does NOT alter my experiences, nor does it alter the fact that in my experience, Speedy's original statement was wrong. Further, it does absolutely nothing at all to indicate that Speedy is correct in his statement, and that he didn't make it up.

So, did you follow that? If not, I'm not sure I can make an explanation any more clear.
_________________________
Paul

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#259995 - 06/09/06 03:38 PM Re: are you serious..... [Re: pgsmith]
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Quote:

Quote:

Just because they have never "mentioned" it doesn't mean that they never "did" it. Speedy could know something we don't, and arguing about it is completely pointless because unless you know and asked every sensei and practitioner in Japan whether they used a jo instaid of a sword during the sword ban, you will never know whether it happened or not.



Dear pepto,
This is a prime example of what I was referring to as "young people's emotional outbursts." You took offense to that particular statement of mine, not sure why, and proceeded to post something absolutely illogical in response. You either disregarded the original argument, or didn't bother to read and understand the posts. Either way your statement made no logical sense, and was simply an emotional outburst in response to one particular statement.

I'll try and explain ...
The original statement was ...
"Sword arts were banned even in Japan post WWII, and that's exactly what people did, use jo as an alternative."

This implies that the Japanese people used jo as an alternative to their sword practice, to which I responded that this was NOT what I understood to have happened, and I had never heard anything like this. Mine was a statement of fact based upon my experiences. Speedy, rather than explaining fully how he came to that conclusion, proceeded to get upset, wiggle around his statement, and finally try to change what I originally said. He never offered any sort of proof or backing to his original statement, so I had to conclude that he made it up.

Now, you have arrived and made the same sort of emotionally laden statement as Speedy by suggesting that my experiences are at fault, since I hadn't personally interviewed everyone involved in the Japanese sword arts during WWII. That fact does NOT alter my experiences, nor does it alter the fact that in my experience, Speedy's original statement was wrong. Further, it does absolutely nothing at all to indicate that Speedy is correct in his statement, and that he didn't make it up.

So, did you follow that? If not, I'm not sure I can make an explanation any more clear.




Lol, I stand corrected. I should of took the time to read speedy's posts. I was just trying to say that "some" people "might" of used the jo instaid of a sword. Not that "most" people "did" use a jo instaid of a sword.

When you say "it's always kind of fun to see logic prevail over young people's emotional outbursts" you are implying that young people make a lot of illogical outbursts. Hence you are insulting the intelligance of most young people.

It probably would of been better if you would of said that you love to see logic prevail over speedy's outburst.

But I apoligigize for not researching the topic before posting about it...

I searched on yahoo, google, and alltheweb and searched for "using a jo instaid of a sword" worded several differant ways and I found nothing so you are probably correct.

(Old people are just as likely to make emotional outbursts as young people)
_________________________
YAY pepto bismol! No... not... kryptonite

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#259996 - 06/09/06 03:55 PM Re: are you serious..... [Re: pepto_bismol]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
pepto

NO WE ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I......err.....ahm.......
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#259997 - 06/09/06 04:49 PM Re: are you serious..... [Re: pepto_bismol]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Old people are just as likely to make emotional outbursts as young people



Possibly, but not usually. I have found, from posting on quite a few different forums such as this one over the years, that young people have a much greater tendency to "shoot from the hip" without stopping to consider what is being said. That's how I could tell that Speedy was fairly young. You proved my point with your reply.
_________________________
Paul

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#259998 - 06/10/06 01:24 AM Re: are you serious..... [Re: pgsmith]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Not one of them ever mentioned anyone using jo to replace their sword art.




Now you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't use "replace" their art, I said alternative, as in temporary supplement.

But I found this very enlightening (though offensive and crudely stated)

You are what you post, Speedy.(in reference to your little picture)

Anyways, someone on the other forum was enlightened enough to actually discuss the videos with the maker of the "online dojo" and convinced him to take of some videos and stop offering his "classes" to the mass public, but he still says he will teach some friends his "twirling" thing.

So the rest of this board is meaningless arguments.

Mu!

P.S.
Quote:

If Speedy knows something the rest of don't then--then the burden of proof is upon HIM to present it.
When claims are made its the duty of the claiment to prove he/she is correct---not "our" job to prove they are not correct.





lol @ this.

1. This is the internet, I could say my grandpa is Yagyu Nobuharu and no one would believe me regardless of whether or not it's true.
2. You say this is a logic class - actually it's called a discussion. In real life do you turn every conversation into a debate?
3. I don't have to prove anything to you. I don't have that type of ego to feel some satisfaction in proving myself on the internet. I do feel good about meeting cool people and depending on the situation possibly meeting them at events, competitions, etc, but winning an argument? I don't think that's what FA.com is about?

Anyways, reagrdless of proof or not, I know what I know, so if you believe me cool, if not, whatever. Peace.



Edited by MattJ (06/10/06 09:12 AM)

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#259999 - 06/10/06 08:55 AM Re: are you serious..... [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Speedy

This is what I get for trying to nice and help folks out.

Now your BMW about your own mistakes, errors and screw-ups.

If you "didn't have anything to prove" you would have listened to the folks that know what that doing.
The fact you have not just said "oops, my mistake" and let it go is proof that pgsmith was right all along.

Martial arts 101--if you pull it, you better be able to use it.
You can't have any kind of discussion OR debate when folks simply have no idea what they are talking about yet insist that everyone BUT them is wrong.

So you "know what you know" huh?

Ok--well "I" know you just plain wrong.

So there

This is the point in a discussion where I would say "put up or shut up."

But since you seemingly CAN'T do either---then I guess I'll just have to walk away.

Good luck in your martial arts practice--with an attitude like the one you have expressed here---your going to need all the luck and well wishing you can get.



Edited by cxt (06/10/06 11:09 AM)

Top
#260000 - 06/10/06 11:15 AM Re: are you serious..... [Re: pgsmith]
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Quote:

Quote:

Old people are just as likely to make emotional outbursts as young people



Possibly, but not usually. I have found, from posting on quite a few different forums such as this one over the years, that young people have a much greater tendency to "shoot from the hip" without stopping to consider what is being said. That's how I could tell that Speedy was fairly young. You proved my point with your reply.




I misread what speedy was saying, but I don't think I ever got "emotional" about it. Ever see adults at the horse races, or at vegas? lol I stand by what I said, adults are just as likely to make emotional outbursts as children.
_________________________
YAY pepto bismol! No... not... kryptonite

Top
#260001 - 06/10/06 04:59 PM Re: are you serious..... [Re: SpeedyGonzales]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Anyways, reagrdless of proof or not, I know what I know, so if you believe me cool, if not, whatever. Peace.



Alrighty then. Thank you for confirming my initial suspicions. It seems you are just another "internet expert" with no real experience or knowledge of your own. Good enough, I can ignore you from now on and don't have to worry that I might miss anything worth reading.

Good luck in your endeavours, hopefully you'll learn something eventually. Peas.
_________________________
Paul

Top
#260002 - 06/11/06 12:32 AM Re: are you serious..... [Re: cxt]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Speedy

This is what I get for trying to nice and help folks out.

Now your BMW about your own mistakes, errors and screw-ups.

If you "didn't have anything to prove" you would have listened to the folks that know what that doing.
The fact you have not just said "oops, my mistake" and let it go is proof that pgsmith was right all along.

Martial arts 101--if you pull it, you better be able to use it.
You can't have any kind of discussion OR debate when folks simply have no idea what they are talking about yet insist that everyone BUT them is wrong.

So you "know what you know" huh?

Ok--well "I" know you just plain wrong.

So there

This is the point in a discussion where I would say "put up or shut up."

But since you seemingly CAN'T do either---then I guess I'll just have to walk away.

Good luck in your martial arts practice--with an attitude like the one you have expressed here---your going to need all the luck and well wishing you can get.






When did I say "oops my mistake"?

I'll just sit back and keep laughing

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