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#259049 - 06/03/06 02:54 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
One of the best defense for shooting is to attack or push to stop him from lowering & shoot yourself or strike. And there is the colliding knee techniques. Once you know how to grapple its not that hard to defend against a shoot even from a good grappler.

There are plenty of dumping techniques in katas from Seipa, Saniseru and Bassai or as basic as Heian Godan.
Defend against a tackle high or low has always been a part of self defense Karate. The Change is defending against them safely for the shooter is the stump. Imagine if you could apply a gillotine choke, you could also apply the thumbs to the eyes head control counter, from the guard. Which is in numerous katas. Now can you do this safely probably not. Head butts are now illegal and they are in alot of kata. So in short there is no attack with no defense. But there are attacks that are so successful, that the defense is too late for.

If you watch the UFC or Pride you see that grapling is jsut one of the skills needed. Its close to real fighting but there is a reason why they have rules. Are U stuck on BJJ haven't you seen that more then just BJJ is needed now days, even in the cage.



Edited by Neko456 (06/03/06 03:02 AM)
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#259050 - 06/03/06 03:46 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Neko456]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
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Quote:

Once you know how to grapple its not that hard to defend against a shoot even from a good grappler.





This is just the kind of unrealistic thinking that I was concerned about...


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#259051 - 06/03/06 03:48 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: swseibukan]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
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Quote:

Letís cut to the chase as you say. You seem to be under the assumption that practicing application against a non-compliant shoot is somehow different and on some higher level than practicing a defense against a non-compliant attacker who is trying to jam your teeth down your throat with a haymaker or any other act of physical violence.




If it is your intention to discredit relying on kata in general, that is up to you. I am not here to make that claim.
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#259052 - 06/03/06 03:53 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: swseibukan]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
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Quote:

So please explain how is a shot such unstoppable technique?




Its not unstoppable. But I'd still like you to show me the kata that contains a realistic defense of a shot. I really would. The reason I ask is that there are dozens and dozens of 'defenses' that I've seen promoted as feasible that are just not particularly realistic. I've seen too many 'defenses' that are about as realistic as the 'catch his hand when he throws a jab' defense to a boxer's attack.
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#259053 - 06/03/06 05:43 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
PaulHart Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Naifanchi, as well as many others. But when your cup is so full of knowledge, it is not worth adding more, as I know it will not be accepted.
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#259054 - 06/03/06 05:57 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: PaulHart]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Paul,

What about delivering a single knuckle strike into the eye orbit of the 'shootist' (with appoligies to the late John Wayne - the shootist).

I always found that stops a low attacker's forward momentum somewhat....but then again that's only from my Seisan kata as a 100% application of a technique.

It also makes practice against the one delivering the shoot real fun.
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#259055 - 06/03/06 11:04 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Victor Smith]
PaulHart Offline
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Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Yes, the eyes are hard(read as immpossible) to build up in strength, and make great targets. I was refering to the neck crank, as I used this move on a BJJ guy after a strike to the base of his neck, I was being nice and let him go after I chocked him out, but could just as easily broke the neck.
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#259056 - 06/03/06 11:46 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: PaulHart]
edecco Offline
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Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
http://www.dailymotion.com/tag/gracie/video/194426

well lets see, a Seiuchin stance seemed pretty effective in this case. So there is a some proof where just a STANCE (well an effective fighter who uses what he practices can do)can null a grapple. The fighter is not even a karate practitioner(judo gold medalist) but that stance is used in karate.


Edited by edecco (06/03/06 11:50 AM)

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#259057 - 06/03/06 12:07 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: edecco]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
so this is where the thinking and pondering comes is. Now look and think about your katas and basics and try to figure on your own what will work against a grappler then go try it against a grappler. Then find out what works and what dosen't it is up to you to figure this out if your not getting the proper teaching.

IMO, I am sure every founder in okinawan karate has had this done to them (shoot, its a basic wrestling move) they more than likley had a technique against it that they liked to use. They are just not alive anymore to tell us. Thats why it is important for students to carry on an understanding so it dosen't get lost or to understand one must always THINK about every movement then try different applications for it.

Also i believe Hohan Soken was asked in an interview whether or not there was grappling in karate and I believe he went over to the interviewer and grabbed him in a manner that the interviewer said he was in much pain.


Edited by edecco (06/03/06 12:12 PM)

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#259058 - 06/03/06 12:13 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: edecco]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

http://www.dailymotion.com/tag/gracie/video/194426

well lets see, a Seiuchin stance seemed pretty effective in this case. So there is a some proof where just a STANCE (well an effective fighter who uses what he practices can do)can null a grapple. The fighter is not even a karate practitioner(judo gold medalist) but that stance is used in karate.




?????????????????????????????????????

Where did you see a shot in that match?

If Royce bending over and grabbing for Yoshida's waist is what you think of as a shot, then we are talking about some very different things.
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