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#259039 - 06/02/06 04:14 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: Eveal]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Real karate is about fighting and how to avoid it.
It contains a technical/physical part as well as an phylosophical/moral aspect.
In the center of how to learn about fighting from the karate perspective is kata. It contains everything you need to understand fighting. To analyse and to be able to execute the features displayed in kata we have additional training methods containing conditioning, stepping patterns, partner drills and sparring methods. Some emphesize some of these aspects of training more than other and consider that specific study more suitable to reach their goal that may or may not be in line with real karate.
In analysing the movement of kata, you should not be deceived by the enbusen (moving pattern) nor limit yourself to the exact execution of the movement and stop at that. 'Real ti starts where the kata ends' emphesizes the dynamic follow thru of the technique initiated from the kata. In that regard I consider 'overcoming the distance' or 'entering the fight' sometimes referred to as irimi or iri kumi the most difficult part in understanding fighting for the moment. Most of the vital points are on the inside or on the back of the opponent. However when attacking these points from the front, you should consider the counter. Trying to attack the back needs more than a simple one-step movement in most cases. The side is usually better protected. Do you feel that kata points you in the right direction regarding dilemma's in fighting ???

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#259040 - 06/02/06 04:22 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: kusojiji]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Quote:

I hope its the kata of joining a wrestling club, cause...




Cause you don't know a kata that addresses these issues?
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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#259041 - 06/02/06 04:25 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: swseibukan]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
thanks for that info link on Kyan, Swseibukan.

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#259042 - 06/02/06 05:05 PM from a wrestling perspective... [Re: swseibukan]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Quote:

I hope its the kata of joining a wrestling club, cause...




Cause you don't know a kata that addresses these issues?




Because 'kata' isn't how you train yourself to defend a shot. Defending a shot is how you train to defend a shot. Its not that doing kata is gonna hurt or anything, but the most important part of learning to swim is the part where you get wet, right?
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#259043 - 06/02/06 05:15 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think all this is base preception some believe that real Karate starts where Kata ends. Then why is it after numerous battles and Training, why do some of the Teacher/fighters of 10-20-30-40 years experience dig back into their Katas or can admired others Kata interpetation. Is it that after using and feeling these techniques you now know what and where they are in the katas. Thats now you see and understand, even think darn those old guy were brilliant and its was there all this time an I didn't see it. Now I do.

Katas to me are like a Dictionarys they point the way and define the meaning. Unlike fighting which like a converstaion its constantly changing and adpating you don't pull out a Kata/dictionary just to speak or respond to a question. You just respond.

This does not mean you can't find a better responce or root word in the dictionary. Therefore when this question/motion is asked for again you can use a more concise, refined or defined method of dispatching or deflecting their intent.

Bunkia are like reading a Book of course of words/techniques found in the dictionary/Kata. Fighting is like speaking every changing both offfense and defense, fients and fakes and direct responding and making contact.

Thats my interpetation and I'll add to say that real Karate starts where kata ends is like saying after Shodan/Godan there no more to learn.

There is no right or wrong way wrote in concrete. If it past the test of survival, its right for you.

CVV interesting subject and point of view.


Edited by Neko456 (06/02/06 05:27 PM)

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#259044 - 06/02/06 11:42 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
So was I less than clear? My statement was
“we have kata that address defense against a shoot as well as variations of applying a shoot.”

To which you commented
“I hope its the kata of joining a wrestling club, cause...”

And I responded
“Cause you don't know a kata that addresses these issues?”

And you come back with
“Because 'kata' isn't how you train yourself to defend a shot. Defending a shot is how you train to defend a shot. Its not that doing kata is gonna hurt or anything, but the most important part of learning to swim is the part where you get wet, right?”

So my question to you is this. From what I have said where do you get the idea that I don’t train against a shoot on the mat? My comment to Eveal was just to point out that he was wrong about katas lack of addressing a shoot when in fact some kata do contain the application of shooting for you opponents’ legs as well as defending against same.

Neko456 mentions the same analogy that I give my students. Kata is like a dictionary “words and their descriptions”. We study the kata to increase and improve our karate vocabulary. Just studying the dictionary will not make you a better conversationalist it takes interaction with others to do that.

Just a note I started swimming around 67 on the junior high wrestling team, learned to back stroke in a boxing ring and moved on to karate in 75. I’ve been plenty wet, but I haven’t been wet behind the ears for decades.

Yours in Okinawan Karate
Pat
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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#259045 - 06/03/06 12:44 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: swseibukan]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

So was I less than clear? My statement was
“we have kata that address defense against a shoot as well as variations of applying a shot.”




Alright, let's cut to the chase. Can you put up a clip of said kata? Pictures maybe? Stick-figure drawings?
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#259046 - 06/03/06 12:51 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.


Quote:

Because 'kata' isn't how you train yourself to defend a shot. Defending a shot is how you train to defend a shot. Its not that doing kata is gonna hurt or anything, but the most important part of learning to swim is the part where you get wet, right?




Kusojiji,Would you please be more specific.
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#259047 - 06/03/06 01:52 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Isshinryukid4life]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:



Quote:

Because 'kata' isn't how you train yourself to defend a shot. Defending a shot is how you train to defend a shot. Its not that doing kata is gonna hurt or anything, but the most important part of learning to swim is the part where you get wet, right?




Kusojiji,Would you please be more specific.




Well, I've seen plenty of kata that purport to contain takedown defenses of some sort or another, but frankly some of it is unrealistic if you are talking about defending a skilled shot. A real defense against a shot is as much about reading your opponent's intention as anything physical. Then, the actual defense is a very tactile response to movement and application of leverage, usually including a sprawl or something like it (I'd like to see that kata). It is learned and adapted through countless hours of actual practice against fully resisting opponents who are themselves committed wrestlers. Its not something that is internalized by pretending every other Wednesday for 30 minutes against non-grapplers and convincing oneself that it will just somehow work when it has to. Some of the 'defense' I've seen proposed and acted out in kata along the lines of "you step to the left and push his head down with your right hand" or "you simply lift your knee and then bring your elbow down on the back of his head" are not super likely if one is defending against a well set-up shot of any significant quality.
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#259048 - 06/03/06 02:39 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Let’s cut to the chase as you say. You seem to be under the assumption that practicing application against a non-compliant shoot is somehow different and on some higher level than practicing a defense against a non-compliant attacker who is trying to jam your teeth down your throat with a haymaker or any other act of physical violence.

So please explain how is a shoot such unstoppable technique? And do you assert that a shoot is a modern concept that the founders of karate and the creators of the traditional kata that we practice today did not have to deal with such a basic and primitive attack? I mean wrestling was around long before standup fighting wasn't it? And just for further clarification since your profile is a little sketchy, what system or systems do you study? What kata are you basing your assumptions on so that we might have some common ground to continue this discussion on?

And I agree with your statement on the forms and application thread “If they are better than you, you go down.” And it applies across the board grappling, or standup. If they are better trained and prepared you go down.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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