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#259179 - 06/08/06 04:29 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: edecco]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

so what would you consider the average range for a 100% perfect shoot to be executed. Also what is to close for a shoot before it's a hinderance or more time to exicute? I am looking at a zone to look for.




Anything from within arm's reach (and of course closer) is in range.
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#259180 - 06/08/06 04:31 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Stormdragon]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Kusojiji- Kata does have many many good grappling moves such as throws, a few takedowns, trips and sweeps, joint locks, chokes etc. The grappling techniques of kata just aren't as refined and developed as that of wrestling(as far as I know).





Fair enough.
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#259181 - 06/08/06 05:17 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Just an observation, defending against a trained wrestler who wants to shoot you is never going to be easy, no techniques are 100%.

we do train defense against the shoot in my dojo and I have found a couple of really good measures that work, alot of the time.

1. stance shift - take the front leg back, reverse the stance, quickly and with commitment, do not get caught flat footed, with feet together!

2. arm jam - use your front arm as a barrier to stop momentum building into the shoot, collar bones are good places to palm into.

Now this is of course not involving 'striking' which if used well, and you see the shoot coming are extremly efffective but thats in a perfect world!

as always its about drilling with different partners, of different levels in different situations, nothing is the ultimate we all have our good days and bad.

It is significant to look at the distancing though, the foot work of those wrestlers wasnt alive and im sure this is to do with the format they were competing in.
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#259182 - 06/08/06 05:20 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Here is a karate match (WKF rules) with a shoot and an attempt to shoot in it.
See for yourselve if these athletes can move fast enough or not.
www.jutsko.com/fr/Windowsmedia.asp?idVideo=626&idSubCat=161&idCat=9

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#259183 - 06/08/06 05:51 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: adaca]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

With regards to your statement about better methods of training self defence in a bar than karate for a person training in their first year. Sorry I totaly disagree.
It would seem that our training methods are worlds apart.

Mai thai does have advanced methods if it is sought out.

How ever good luck with your training.




I agree that Muay Thai has a wide arsenal of advanced technique. And as with karate it takes a lot of years to train and master them.
The difference with karate training in the beginning is that they will always start from a 2 person perspective making contact and karate will not. The karate I studie emphesizes good technique before sparring practise and good technique is first trained solo. This in view of to be able to control the technique as we do not use any protection in free sparring nor in partner drills.
In the Muay Thai training I have done, focus is immidiatly on impact and endurence training and you learn to spar with contact from day one. All this with protective gear. The basic techniques are less in the beginning (direct/cross/hook/swing/uppercut, low-middle-high kick/front kick, clinching-throwing, clinching-kneeing, elbow) and the combinations are trained from day one (classical opening left direct, right low kick) and correct execution is trained with partner directly.
So my statement is that if you just want to know how to handle yourselve in a stand-up fist fight, you will get quicker results by training in a Muay Thai gym than in a karate dojo. However, when I started karate, every training would at least have 20mins free continous sparring, without protective gear. Nowadays, for adults (+25) I focus one training a week on kata and yakusoke kumite derived from kata (focus on technique) and one training on free sparring, anything allowed as long as you can control it. Endurence as well as technique with speed and timing is part of this training.

So how do you train ??

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#259184 - 06/08/06 06:39 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: shoshinkan]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

the foot work of those wrestlers wasnt alive and im sure this is to do with the format they were competing in.




Wasn't alive?
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#259185 - 06/08/06 06:52 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: CVV]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Here is a karate match (WKF rules) with a shoot and an attempt to shoot in it.
See for yourselve if these athletes can move fast enough or not.
www.jutsko.com/fr/Windowsmedia.asp?idVideo=626&idSubCat=161&idCat=9




Its not a matter of how 'fast these athletes are'. Its a matter of time and distance and realistic reaction.
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#259186 - 06/08/06 08:00 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
ok, now they are skilled and fast, but my point is that the range issue wasnt being dealt with (screwed up), ie the distance remained fairly consistant - allowing the shoot to be set up alot of the time.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#259187 - 06/08/06 08:54 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
No, Stormdragon, the grappling techniques of karate are refined. They, however, are not as varied as that of wrestling, which makes perfect sense. Since there is not striking in wrestling you must have a wide variety of grappling. When striking enters the picture there are techniques you can and cannot do. This therefore limits your grappling attacks. Just as in striking. In a format where there is no grappling the flying side kick may be very effective, but add ground fighting and it may not be. As far as straight takedowns karate has the single/double leg shot, fireman's carry, osoto gari, and several others. The key is most karate dojo don't train these techniques and are generally ignorant of their proper usage and training methods. To learn grappling a person must train in grappling. Once a certain level of skill is attained then a karateka can extract the lessons of karate's grappling methods. I recommend to my young karate students to study wrestling in school to cover the basics of grappling. Okinawan karate is a cultural art unique to the okinawans. You must understand its culture to understand it. Okinawan youth used to be trained in okinwan sumo which is a grappling sport more like wrestling than Japanese Sumo. This early training aided their development in karate. Grappling training is a must for mastery of karate. When okinawan sumo was no longer widely practiced it was judo, and now it is more wrestling and bjj. Tomorrow it may be something else. May be I was lucky because I never had to learn this lesson because I began wrestling around the same time I started karate and never had to wonder. They ALWAYS tied into one another, it just seemed natural to use my wrestling training to enhance my karate. Imagine my suprise when I learned there acutally was a lot of grappling in karate. To all of those people I used to spar with I TOLD YOU I WASN'T CHEATING THIS STUFF REALLY IS IN KARATE. Why do you think american football players train with a track coach to learn to run efficiently and then adapt it to their duties on the field? Because although there is running in football, you still must be trained properly on how to do so.

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#259188 - 06/08/06 11:50 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: adaca]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thanks to everyone! This thread is getting interesting.

adaca,
This is for you http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15830090/an/0/page/12#15830090

If you wish to discuss it please take it to pm. BTW,I did not say we were 'training' kicks.




Back to the thread!!


Edited by BrianS (06/08/06 11:57 PM)
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