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#259089 - 06/05/06 07:47 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: edecco]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Kusojiji, actually I saw a UFC fighter the other day never get taken down cleanly or even close once in the whole 15 minute fight. It was diego Sanchez(an excellent wrestler, maybe a great one), versus a Canadian guy (Don't remeber his name off the top of my head).
Diego had to of shot several dozen times during the fight (literally), ever other move or so was a shot. They never once succeded. However, that is very, very uncommon.
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#259090 - 06/05/06 10:18 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Stormdragon]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Kusojiji, actually I saw a UFC fighter the other day never get taken down cleanly or even close once in the whole 15 minute fight. It was diego Sanchez(an excellent wrestler, maybe a great one), versus a Canadian guy (Don't remeber his name off the top of my head).
Diego had to of shot several dozen times during the fight (literally), ever other move or so was a shot. They never once succeded. However, that is very, very uncommon.




I'm guessing that fella had more than kata practice in his training background.
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#259091 - 06/05/06 10:30 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: edecco]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

kusojiji,
I had asked this question just a couple of posts before could you help me out with the answer please.

"I would also like to ask what style of karate are you in so i may learn about it and it's history so i can see where you are comming from."




I'm sorry to have made you wait. I am not currently studying any form of karate. Its never been my focus, really. I studied Nihon Kempo for about a year or so back in the day and I've worked out with lots of karateka but I am certainly no expert in karate. Nor have I ever claimed to be. That's why I'm hoping someone will post a vid of one of these kata that contain sprawling and such. I'm very curious. What I DO know an awful lot about is wrestling. I know how explosive and quick a really good shot is.
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#259092 - 06/05/06 11:04 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Okay, I think I have this all figured out. kusojiji knows little about Karate, so he wants those of us that do to tell him how to defend against his "ultimate" move, the shot. He doesn't want to be bothered with learning anything, and anything anyone says will not help him see the light. I do not know why anyone would waste his time trying to explain something to someone who is not willing to listen. Let experience be his teacher.

We are talking about someone who does not even comprehend the idea of taking the message off his signature section of the post. Maybe some things cannot be taught. This section of this forum is about Karate. I know that many of us have actually taken the effort to face off against wrestlers, BJJ guys and Judo players. I have nothing to prove to this guy, as I have already proven it to the most important person, which is me. Maybe the guy is a Rickson Gracie or Kimura and would use his "shot" to beat the crap out of the lot of us. Then again, maybe not. Point is, what does it matter? We will not change his mind, and he will certainly not change mine.
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#259093 - 06/05/06 11:16 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
Ahh ok now i understand where you are comming from so I can make more sense in what i can say. I agree with some of your points but not all. Alot of schools changed what Kata is to make it more "mass appealing". From your other posts in different threads I can see that you understand this. When I was taught kata I just never did it without question. I asked and tested stuff out.

That seemed what alot of other dojos ended up doing back in the day when i was in Karate do kata with blind obedience (looking at some of the people on this forum that seems to be changing). Just alot of theory and talking I took it upon myself to spar different styles making new friends within those styles.

To say one style technique is superior over another is all a $##@. We should all agree on that. Karate has a long history and within that history there are different points of views. Some give up this for that and things get muddled there is misscommunication, so on.

Someone who fights another karate person will only ever know how to fight another karate person or an untrained individual. This goes for any style, karate has had a loss in it's curriculum because the practitioner has lost the experience of fighting different people in different places. Some may not agree with me but that is my opinion.

Karate (kata) does not have all the answers but it does haven hints to lead you in the right direction. As i believe other styles have this aswell. No style is perfect a style is a large river that has many streams breaking away from it, if the main river does not have what you seek follow the stream see what you find. It may not contain the answer your looking for but, it may answer another question.

The systems were put in place because they worked. It's just some forgot how to navigate through the river and it's many streams. Some try to use maps but can't figure out if they are using fake ones or not. Some decide to wander and figure things out themselves, but one should know the large river before they wander off and get lost.

Sure we can debate if a perfect shoot will get a karate guy. I say this:

A wrestler CAN take a karate person.
A karate person can take a wrestler.

If both prepare and not ignorant of the capabilities of the other it's anyones game. The person who has most knowledge of the other fighter will be the one with the edge. They don't have to be a practioner of the other style (although that would be good and some do) just knowledgeable of what that other style can do when done CORRECTLY.

So lets leave this post saying that if styles became more knowledgeable of eachother we would see a flourish in evolutions within each style making them more complete NOT changing them just adapting because of knowledge which I believe in my opinion the pioneers in the systems would rather see than bikering.


Edited by edecco (06/05/06 11:32 PM)

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#259094 - 06/05/06 11:21 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: PaulHart]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The problem is that with some imagination kata can contain anything you wany,including sprawling,but it really doesn't.

The other problem is that karate people do not train for takedowns or groundfighting. If you do,good on you,but I assure you that your group is in the minority.

You need much more than kata.
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#259095 - 06/05/06 11:30 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: BrianS]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
Brian, I agree with you on some level. Kata is just a tool. But it can help you get where you want to go, just some forget about that.


Edited by edecco (06/05/06 11:30 PM)

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#259096 - 06/05/06 11:35 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: PaulHart]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Okay, I think I have this all figured out.




No, it seems you don't.

Quote:

kusojiji wants those of us that do to tell him how to defend against his "ultimate" move, the shot.




Curious. Why would you use the term "ultimate", and in quotation marks? Are you quoting yourself?

Quote:

He doesn't want to be bothered with learning anything




Am I to understand that every opinion YOU hold is gem I need to "learn"? You've a high opinion of yourself.

Quote:

Let experience be his teacher.




I hate to break it to you, but I may just have already had more instruction from that teacher than you.

Quote:

I know that many of us have actually taken the effort to face off against wrestlers, BJJ guys and Judo players.




But a wrestler who has "actualy taken the effort to face off against" karateka, BJJ guys, Judo players, etc. doesn't count I guess.

Quote:

Maybe the guy is a Rickson Gracie or Kimura and would use his "shot" to beat the crap out of the lot of us.




The fact that you reference JJ guys in this context says a lot.
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#259097 - 06/05/06 11:40 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: PaulHart]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

I do not know why anyone would waste his time trying to explain something to someone who is not willing to listen.




Just to add, I believe I have requested several times to see examples of what folks are referring to so we can all compare together. So far none of the folks who are getting so defensive for whatever reason have chosen to comply. You want to take the edge off your insecurity? Here's your chance.
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#259098 - 06/05/06 11:45 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
kusojiji, You have more experience in wrestling. You have some knowledge in Karate. You say you practiced with other karateka did the practitioners not take your knowledge(it what you showed them) in wrestling and incorporate it. I mean did they not look at their own style for possiblities of a grapple withing their katas?

I mean they should have reflected and said "hey that move you just showed me can be set up with the action or rection within my kata in this particular style. Well atleast thats what i would have tried doing if I was sparring with you. Giving me a begining or ends of a means to something, and look at look at things differently.


Edited by edecco (06/05/06 11:50 PM)

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