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#259139 - 06/06/06 03:43 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Polite reminder to all, please keep things friendly and sensible, this is not the place for forum members to get to personal or disrespectful, it is the place for sensible debate.






So,basically some believe that kata contain groundfighting and even the sprawl. I do not,however I do train groundfighting and wrestling.

This is what's important,what you train,not where you get it from.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#259140 - 06/06/06 03:46 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
kusojiji

Ref your vidio.

Ok.These guys are good.
See your point. Can you just remind me again. What exactly are you asking ?Is it
how would a person think they would go about fighting these guys in a no holds competition with strikes etc or what would a person use in a street fight against such techniques?

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#259141 - 06/06/06 03:49 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

A good skilled wrestler WILL take you down almost without fail if you just stand there and try to hit them. Those kata grappling defense moves may work sometimes but rarely, especially against a much larger opponent, whereas wrestling takedown defenses work quite well against larger opponents. Having wrestled two years, against some very, very good wrestlers, I know how hard it is to defend a takedown that's well set up.





Neko!!!! You nailed it!!

Quote:

Kusojiji - No, there aren't. There are strikers who want to think they are impossible to take down. The kind of painful disappointment that results from such an attitude is what I'd like to see you avoid.





and again!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#259142 - 06/06/06 07:00 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: BrianS]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Traditionalist tend to get very upset about this argument because they don't believe in change at all it seems. Self-defense is an ever changing event that will never stop and shouldnt be taught with limits. Kata will remain the same for years and years and will limit the applications within it because of this. Is there value in kata training, yes there is. Should it be taught as a core training? No, unless you want the deep history of an art than go for kata as the main source for self-defense applications. With this said I think kata will take a student years before he learns how to defend himself proficiently with a form. Kata tends to take the long road the a single and simple answer.

Things I have noticed through my years of training is that alot of traditional martial artists never learn how to sprawl, bob n weave, slip, even feint. Also, I never seen any learn to close gaps like a point sparrer would do. I adapted to all these needs and kata taught me none of it. I learned through either trial and error or just cross training in other fields. I tell you to get off your high horse and go out to some worthy schools and ask can you train a day and they will show you your weakness.

Kata to me is your basic building block and once you get to your top of the stack than you are going to want to mold things to your liking. Taking whats effective and trashing on whats not effective. How can you experience different forms of attacks if you can't open your mind to modern times?

Special thanks to Adaca and Kosujiji for their input as well.

Also, noone should take offense to others thoughts because they are only our opinions and they are not attacking anyone directly or indirectly for that matter. Wish you all a great day everyone!
_________________________
Be "Water" my friend!

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#259143 - 06/06/06 10:32 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Eveal]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'With this said I think kata will take a student years before he learns how to defend himself proficiently with a form.'

just a minor point, surley kata study rather than simple performance is of more significance? The kata itself is just a tool after all - it needs to be used (drills? principle delivery?).

with that in mind kata performance alone would of course deliver very little use in anything apart from historical exchange (far better ways to keep fit, jiggle the internal organs, work target areas, combinations etc etc), and certainly wouldnt help much with self protection, its application and use is a different game isnt it?
_________________________
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#259144 - 06/06/06 10:56 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Eveal]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
Quote:

Traditionalist tend to get very upset about this argument because they don't believe in change at all it seems. Self-defense is an ever changing event that will never stop and shouldnt be taught with limits. Kata will remain the same for years and years and will limit the applications within it because of this. Is there value in kata training, yes there is. Should it be taught as a core training? No, unless you want the deep history of an art than go for kata as the main source for self-defense applications.




Eveal, I am a TMA in thinking about karate. But i debate this question not because I have fear of change, it's because people get so closed minded about what Kata is. They lack the knowledge or the practice to think for themselves.

Quote:


With this said I think kata will take a student years before he learns how to defend himself proficiently with a form. Kata tends to take the long road the a single and simple answer.




some of this is true but it is in more regards to people who don't use what they learn(getting experince testing things out for themselves) and evolve and adapt what they have learned from a root movement NOt the whole form. Rememeber Katas are not a whole they are to be deconstructed.

Quote:


Things I have noticed through my years of training is that alot of traditional martial artists never learn how to sprawl, bob n weave, slip, even feint. Also, I never seen any learn to close gaps like a point sparrer would do. I adapted to all these needs and kata taught me none of it. I learned through either trial and error or just cross training in other fields.




It sounds like you never found a good Karate dojo in the manner of thinking. I promise you if you visit a TMA that is very good you would have had this help instead of going on your own and would have been open mided in your concerns and help you bridge the gap between kata and actual applications of a single movement in katas not a whole form.

Quote:


I tell you to get off your high horse and go out to some worthy schools and ask can you train a day and they will show you your weakness.




I agree 100% with this alot of TMA are on a high horse because they are the majority. The minority is and alway was open to thinking in this manner it's just to few of them. I am lucky to have seen and meet okinawains and only a FEW americans that show what karate can be and is. They are prime examples of taking kata and adapting it in practicle use. Meaning taking that root SOLITARY MOVEMENT in katas and applying it. It is perfectly acceptable to take new movents or stratagies (if one cannot find what they are looking for but atleast try looking first and try some stuff out)but the core should never be abandoned because they were put in place for a reason. True karate or martial arts is a life long journey always to be added on but should never be subtracted because it's like throwing experinec away.

I will give an example ok I start off with a gun and bullets things evolve now I have a bomb because i found my gun and bullets obsolete someone found a defense agianst them. In this process I loose my bullets.

Then i find another person who makes my bomb obsolete but i see they are weak against a gun BUT WHOLLY [Email]S@#$@[/Email] where are my bullets because i cast them aside because i thought I was all cool with this BOMB that DOSEN'T work and now i have a gun with no bullets. That could have ended this situation with this new person very quickly.

Quote:


Kata to me is your basic building block and once you get to your top of the stack than you are going to want to mold things to your liking. Taking whats effective and trashing on whats not effective. How can you experience different forms of attacks if you can't open your mind to modern times?





this is a great statement!!!!!!!!!! about 97% right!!!
the only part I disagree with was trashing the rest, see the previouse answer about the gun,bullets and bomb. People tend to forget that and try to make an end all be all about about things we have to always learn new info accept new possiblities but to get rid of things, is to repeat the mistakes of the past and that just forces people to relearn things that at one point that were already there but got trashed because of change. Accept the change but don't forget thats why a majority of karate dojo's suffer today.


Quote:

Also, noone should take offense to others thoughts because they are only our opinions and they are not attacking anyone directly or indirectly for that matter. Wish you all a great day everyone!




this is good open minded people should be able to see both sides with justification if they are truley open minded.


Edited by edecco (06/06/06 11:30 AM)

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#259145 - 06/06/06 11:35 AM Re: from a okinawan karate perspective [Re: kusojiji]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Quote:

Alright! Now we're getting somewhere. What's happening in Udewa there? That looks like somethin'.




The book that those drawings came from is and old okinawan book called the Bubuishi, it is considered to be the bible of karate. The movement dipicteds as “Udewa” is in the kata Shotokan would call Bassai for us it is Passai, in the kata the movement looks like a double punch (high and low) delivered from a very low zenkusta dachi. We train it to shoot in and pick the leg for a takedown. (Notice I didn’t say pratice the kata with the intent, I said train the movement as in on the mat with increasing levels of resitance.) In the drawing you see the left hand at the knee and the right hand around the calf, in our version of the kata the next movement pushes the knee to the right wilst pulling the calf to the left (into your chest) and lifting. No that can’t be right, because if kata describes takedowns it would only make sense that it address defense against takedowns as well.

I know I said I was done with this BS, but like some other people here I just don’t know when to drop it. I believe in the usefulness of kata and the application that it contains. The application described in kata has just as much merit today as when they were originated as an unwritten method of transferring one mans knowledge of self-defense to others. And just like a book it can only describe\record the technique, in order to learn how to apply it properly takes a good teacher and lots of practice with a partner.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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#259146 - 06/06/06 12:27 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Eveal]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Eval,

Your description of kata’s use in karate is rather limiting, and while it may define how traditional karate approaches kata use, it is not descriptive of karate in a larger sense.

There remains an ongoing issue where trying to look at a piece of the art and using that piece to define all of the art is incorrect.

Joe Swift once defined karate periods as follows. [BTW they are just guidelines not an official categorization, and this is important because it suggests that karate is not a single definition..]

Classical Karate – roughly pre-1920. Karate was a non-documented practice and most of the kata in use today were originally formulated. The method of instruction was most individualized.

Traditional Karate – roughly post 1920 to say 1960. Where new beginning forms were created and in Japan karate training underwent structural development. During most of the period prior to WWII on Okinawa it remained Classical Karate. On both Okinawan and Japan kata continued to change for varying reasons. This is the true constant in understanding kata, it was never a fixed concept, except for the beginner.

Modern Karate – roughly post 1960. Where all the older structures really underwent change. Karate spread to the world. Okinawa in the late 50’s began adopting some of the practices that developed in Japan (uniforms, rank, formal organizations).

Contemporary Karate- Whatever occurred in the past 10 years to the Present.

Now we have some very interesting information about what Classical Karate contained. Mizuho Mutsu, an early student of Funakoshi Ginchin, was unsatisfied with his training and in 1930 traveled to Okinawa to train at the source. From that training he wrote two books.

The second book, written in 1933 Mutsu Mizuho’s ‘Karate Kempo’ (a bio of Mutsu and a description of this marvelous book can be found at http://seinenkai.com/articles/swift/art-mutsu3.html ). [This was before Funakoshi wrote his “Karate Do Koyhan – the Master Text” in 1935 and Mutsu defined almost all of the kata later included in the JKA, as opposed to Funakoshi’s choice of 15 kata.] BTW the book was reprinted in Japan in the 90’s and does cost quite a bit to own a copy, if any more are still available.

One half of his book focuses on how karate techniques may be applied, structured into type of defensive movement. He begins with bobs, weaves and dodges. It’s obvious that these techniques were part of some karate in the past. For various reasons the art does not seem to have focused on their use.

For example they present one way to deal with striking attacks, such as a boxer might use, but there are other ways to deal with those attacks without using those motions. Way using techniques in kata, perhaps with a basic Indonesian perspective, but still with kata technique.

It’s rather clear to me that Classical Karate did not share the restrictions about kata technique that have been suggested.

In effect the manner in which kata technique may be applied is almost limitless. While I make no claims for reaching that understanding, I keep working.

The limits of kata technique application being set by the interpretations preferred by the instructor or the practitioner. That many styles of karate only focus on a subset of any kata’s use does not prevent others from taking fuller advantage of those techniques.

I would suggest you should frame your discussion more appropriately to those groups of traditional karate which use the restrictions you describe.

You comments just don't describe karate as I see it.

Simply put if there isn't kata it isn't karate (of any sort).
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#259147 - 06/06/06 01:01 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Eveal]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Quote:

Traditionalist tend to get very upset about this argument because they don't believe in change at all it seems. Self-defense is an ever changing event that will never stop and shouldnt be taught with limits. Kata will remain the same for years and years and will limit the applications within it because of this. Is there value in kata training, yes there is. Should it be taught as a core training? No, unless you want the deep history of an art than go for kata as the main source for self-defense applications. With this said I think kata will take a student years before he learns how to defend himself proficiently with a form. Kata tends to take the long road the a single and simple answer.

How can you experience different forms of attacks if you can't open your mind to modern times?

Special thanks to Adaca and Kosujiji for their input as well.

Also, noone should take offense to others thoughts because they are only our opinions and they are not attacking anyone directly or indirectly for that matter. Wish you all a great day everyone!




I'm not upset but I'd like you to see, What I see is the new thinking what they are doing is New. What you will find the longer you study that nothing New just rediscovered.

Change is is inevitable you must change in order to adapt. An art/anything dies if it does not adapt to its environment. Personally I'd rather do it stand up, if I have to do it on the ground Ok lets roll, but I'd rather do it, my way.

Have you noticed that when striker does in a grappler. The grapplers is more beat up or the effects are more immeadiate and devastating then tapping a guy out?????

Theres a reason why I do things my way though I can do it YOUR way, but bc I like my way I may induce strikes then go back to submission or vice versa to make sure he is out.

BrainS we don't agree on much, But there are some fine Karate men that can grapple really well (its not a secret Art), but never forget to strike. You got to mix it so it merges when the oppurtunity rise to STRIKE!!! Do wew still agree?

No offense taken, and hopefully none given. When the Gracies/UFC hit the scene it was nothing new (I'd seen judo guys do thatto strikers), something I knew way back then. But I also predicted once the striker knew what they where doing they would dominate the pure grapplers again.

Nothing new. If I know what you can do and what I can do I'm better prepared, then you. If you only know how to fight 1 range (espeicailly if its was with less contact)!!! Ain't nothing New, but everything is relative.



Edited by Neko456 (06/06/06 01:08 PM)
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#259148 - 06/06/06 01:27 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Neko456]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Have you noted that Gracie has been training in kickboxing, improving his striking skills.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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