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#259029 - 06/02/06 09:42 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: shoshinkan]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
I agree with you on this. But fighting with form is still left with limitations and boundries. Its been proven that these limits have been detrimental to many "good" martial artist. I truly believe the value of the "kata" but I hold self-defense and fighting on totally different stand points and should be taught in a different concept. Kata is principles and has defense capabilies if taught correctly. Its fun to use and figure out "bunkai" but I never found them practical but this may be fault on my instructor's teaching of them or just my thoughts about them clouding my judgements. We must leave ourselves open to adapt to all situations and ready for anything possible. I never seen a form that teaches you have to defend against a shooting opponent (which im sure you know various techniques) or how to defend if your on the ground. Sorry I could go on and on but its only my opinions.
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#259030 - 06/02/06 10:00 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: Eveal]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Kata illistrates principles of movement and some 'tactics' by technique - its up to us to remember that.

A simple example, Pinan Shodan (I will try and be generic), the first movement -

Technique (as I do it), look to the left (22.5 degrees!), right foot steps into Naihanchi Dachi, left arm up into uppercut, right arm jodan age uke - same time.

Principles Taught, Lock onto direction of attack, if caught on the inside deflect/strike same time, drop to effect an uppercut/absorb attack, step off line a little.

Now whilst the technique screams defense against a round head punch (any side - the moves repeated), Its principles can be used agianst other attacks and situations.

But how many 'other' attacks are used in self defense? Not many is the truth and thats the rub (fixed aspect).

As I see it this is why we practise so many different techniques in differnent kata, (and why so many are repeated!) to cover all scenarios of common assault, based on proportionally few core principles.

Now im not going to pretend that its perfect, the ultimate or complete, I believe systems just arnt, they are works in progress due to changing times.

For me McCarthy Sensei did more for karate than anyone else in recent years with his theory on common methods of assault, and his tegumi flow drills,

I try and train with that in mind - not a big old 'karate' oi tsuki attack in sight in my dojo!

Re defence from kata against a shooting opponent or when grounded, well thats open to interpretaion, and has been discussed extensivly before.

an to finish with I am totally happy that effective self defence can be taught withoubt kata, but that isnt karate is it!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#259031 - 06/02/06 11:39 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: shoshinkan]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
ok i know some on this forum say it often and it's been used in articles and so on. But it seems some still do not get the basic principles. The phrase is "Katas are your tool box and every movment is a tool"

IMO this is exactly what kata is. Doing Kata and fighting are two different things we can all agree on that. But looking at kata as just an excercise is way off base. Kata is there for memorization of movements and proper technique after that is achived, guess what your not done learning.

It is up to the practioner and up to the teacher to help advance the learing process and completely deconstruct what you have learned and dissect every movement, posture, and breathing within that kata.

This is where karate starts and kata ends, when the practionar can take different movements from different kata and string them together to form a proper defense or offense. Doing kata is fine and dandy but if you can't apply what you learn then you will never do anything but kata and nothing else.

Example I was in another dojo a different branch of the same style I was in. Well they wanted to know what self defense techniques we used. My response was "what are you talking about?". They wanted to know what techniques we used besides the basics and katas that we used in "real life self defense". This confused me further and i looked at them funny. So they gave me an example of a movenment from a "real life" senerio. I didn't hesitate in my answer and said "double shuto" which is a basic movement. They said "no" then proceeded to show me a lock with a pressure point. I was "thats nice but a double shuto strike would have worked aswell" Point being people get so closed minded as to detach kata and basics from real fighting that they don't see whats in front of them or don't go home after practice and just think of movements in a broken down manner rather than a whole.

Fortunatly in my younger years I took what i learned and went and fought different people in different styles of martial arts aswell as brawlers, to push me further in my understanding of the style of karate I was in. I then took what failed and what worked and contimplated more on katas that i learned in search of taking a movment and evolving it further but keeping that root movement and technique in tact.If one contiplates and pokes and probes(i know that sounds wrong) at the movments they already have learned your eyes will open. Styles are not one dimensional people are especially when they just take things for granted and not think.

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#259032 - 06/02/06 01:59 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: Eveal]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
You stated
Quote:

Its been proven that these limits have been detrimental to many "good" martial artist.



Could you point to a source for this proof? Because I think youíd find many Okinawan karate practitioners who would debate that claim, Morio Higaonna comes to mind.

Quote:

I truly believe the value of the "kata" but I hold self-defense and fighting on totally different stand points and should be taught in a different concept.



So what is the value of kata if it isnít the core of your system? Kata when taught and studied (not just performed) properly should be the foundation it should define your style or system.

Quote:

Kata is principles and has defense capabilies if taught correctly. Its fun to use and figure out "bunkai" but I never found them practical but this may be fault on my instructor's teaching of them or just my thoughts about them clouding my judgements..



Won't even go there.

Quote:

We must leave ourselves open to adapt to all situations and ready for anything possible.



That is just the kind of training that kata provides when studied properly. A single movement in a kata should not be limited to one interpretation or possible attack. For instance the opening movement in Pinan shodan works as well against a push as it does against a haymaker or a bear hug from behind. And is not limited to those responses, as it will work as well for a lapel grab or choke. Pinan shodan provides a very basic and easy to grasp self defense template built on a persons natural flinch response of brining their hands up in front of their face defensively (which is done on a subconsius level).

Quote:

I never seen a form that teaches you have to defend against a shooting opponent (which im sure you know various techniques) or how to defend if your on the ground. Sorry I could go on and on but its only my opinions.



If you are referring to someone with a gun, then me neither, however I assume you refer to shooting as in a wrestling move. So could be youíre just not looking in the right places, because we have kata that address defense against a shoot as well as variations of applying a shoot.

Yours in Okinawan Karate
Pat
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#259033 - 06/02/06 03:03 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: swseibukan]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

we have kata that address defense against a shoot as well as variations of applying a shoot.

Yours in Okinawan Karate
Pat




I hope its the kata of joining a wrestling club, cause...
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#259034 - 06/02/06 03:26 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: swseibukan]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Great stuff from everyone,

I have a question for yall before I get to answering everyone back. Kata being the core of your style and it makes up your self-defense capabilities, do this mean if your kata is practiced horribly than your self-defense will be horrible to? If you can't quite perform this certain section of your form, than you can't escape that bear hug correcly? I will get back to everyone soon so don't think im avoiding the questions. Also, Kata is exercise, not just physically but mentally also so please don't take what I said out of context. I just have different views on what I gain and teach from kata and there is no set way or sure fire teaching method of it. Oyama had very different views from Funakoshi if you ever read any of his views.
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#259035 - 06/02/06 03:39 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: kusojiji]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
Quote:


I hope its the kata of joining a wrestling club, cause...




was it not Chotoku Kyan who went to japan to demonstrate and got mixed up in a sparring match with a judo practitioner. (maybe a shorin ryu person could clarify the details of this story for i am at work and the book is at home) But I believe when the judo person came in for some sort of throw, Kyan fish-hooked him in the mouth grabbed a hold of the cheek muscle then hammer fisted the opposite side of the face.


Edited by edecco (06/02/06 03:43 PM)

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#259036 - 06/02/06 03:53 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: Eveal]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Quote:


I have a question for yall before I get to answering everyone back. Kata being the core of your style and it makes up your self-defense capabilities, do this mean if your kata is practiced horribly than your self-defense will be horrible to? If you can't quite perform this certain section of your form, than you can't escape that bear hug correcly?




Yep it do. If you can't perform a technique properly solo with no pressure, why would you think you could pull it off in a live situation?
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#259037 - 06/02/06 04:05 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: swseibukan]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
Quote:


I have a question for yall before I get to answering everyone back. Kata being the core of your style and it makes up your self-defense capabilities, do this mean if your kata is practiced horribly than your self-defense will be horrible to? If you can't quite perform this certain section of your form, than you can't escape that bear hug correcly?




don't think because you are shown one movement it does only one thing, or that there aren't other techniques to use. But if your technique sucks well... but if you cannot do the movement because of a disability you will have to adapt that movement in a different way or use a techique that is more suited for the problem that you have.


Edited by edecco (06/02/06 04:07 PM)

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#259038 - 06/02/06 04:07 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: edecco]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
This is an excerpt from an article at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_noble_0800.htm
ďIt's too bad we don't have more information on this incident, but the story of another challenge match was given in a Japanese magazine. It occurred in Taiwan in 1930, when Kyan's demonstration of karate somehow resulted in a challenge from Shinzo Ishida, judo instructor of Taipei Police Headquarters.
Kyan would have been 60 years old at the time but he agreed to the match straightaway. The only thing that concerned him a little was that the judoka might be able to take a firm grip to apply his throwing techniques. Because of this Kyan wore a vest on his upper body rather than a judo jacket.
Ishida himself was wary of karate's striking techniques and when the two men faced each other they kept their distance for some time, sizing each other up. Then suddenly Kyan closed in, thrusting his thumb into the side of Ishida's mouth and fiercely gripping his cheek. With a kick to the knee he knocked Ishida to the ground and followed him down. Kneeling astride the judoka he delivered a tsuki (thrust) to the solar plexus, just stopping short of full contact. Ishida immediately conceded the match. ď
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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