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#259019 - 06/01/06 06:26 PM Real karate starts where kata ends
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
At the core of karate is kata.
Does the kata curriculum of a particular style contain the total sylabus of that style ?
The style I study, goju-ryu, contains 3 types of kata. Fukyu kata, for beginners, heishu kata, close hand kata, for training basics and kaishu kata, open hand kata, for techniques.
So different types of kata for different purpose.
When we sum up the total of the principles and techniques of these kata, with their specific applications does this than encompas the style ? I used to think so.
In older days(pre 1920), most practitioners would train 2 to 3 kata in their life, however most of them were not questioned about their fighting ability.
On this forum, some question the intent of training by some schools and refer to them as Mcdojo misdirecting their students either by ignorance (lack of knowledge) or a quick revenue.
So what is the definition of real karate ?
Central is kata, the principles it displays, it's application and the intent how they are applied and trained. Or is there more ? Chojun Miyagi (goju-ryu founder) said 'think, you will figure it out yourselve'.
Kata is static, not changing. Fighting is dynamic, always changing. In that regard, I heared this statement : "real ti starts where kata ends", implying that the practise of karate goes beyond the specific movement of the kata.
What is real karate ?

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#259020 - 06/01/06 06:57 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: CVV]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Personally I believe the ability to act/react using the priciples drilled from kata study (not performance only!) is where the old art goes, in a self defence situation - nothing more.

A nice benefit of training is to keep in shape and healthy, body/mind and spirit true life preservation.

Everything that is 'fixed' in karate, the kata, the one step drills becomes non fixed after time, the ability to use what is right for the situation as a natural response, withoubt thinking and that takes time,

And the right Sensei/dojo IMO - some can never get it and some dont want it prefering trophys/belts/money and power.

And whilst 'fighting' is of course massivly varied, real self defense isnt so much, its a different game and I think can be trained for very simply.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#259021 - 06/01/06 08:43 PM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
learn what your instructor has to offer, then think for yourself.

if that thinking leads you to other styles and other methods, then you just expanded your understanding of karate.

it's about adapting.

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#259022 - 06/02/06 01:17 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: CVV]
quietstorm Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 27
Yes! kata is the true essence of the " open hand. " Kata teaches balance, self-defense techniques, endurance, correct application of breathing itself, and one I feel is most important, muscle memory. Kata is preparation for the possibility of the real. Kata should put the practioner in various situations so in reality one should act, stand, and defend off pure instinct. Kind of like that nomindedness I've read and heard so much about. Kata IS central!

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#259023 - 06/02/06 01:25 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: CVV]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Real karate is learning the principles behind the movements in the kata so that you can apply them to a real life situation.

'Learn the movements at first then rely on your own posture.'
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#259024 - 06/02/06 02:28 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: BrianS]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Yes...it's the difference between flying a simulator & a real plane. You need one to progress to the other, to learn the principles. Then if you need a skill, it will be automatic.

Just remember, there's a difference between sparring, fighting & SD.

owari

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#259025 - 06/02/06 06:28 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: CVV]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Hey CVV,

I really enjoyed your post here so I thought I would give my opinions on it. Kata for me is exercise and nothing more. It puts an inventive way to drill your basic techiques and also advanced defense applications if their are some within it. I don't buy the whole this form will help you win fights or take down any opponent with ease. I tell my students that forms work more on your targeting, power transitioning, concealing your weight in movement, speed, etc. Forms do not teach you how to recover from an attack if you been hit in the face or how to react if an opponent is pressuring you.
_________________________
Be "Water" my friend!

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#259026 - 06/02/06 06:31 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: Eveal]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Eveal,

exactly - but drilling/pairs work taken from kata does, if trained in a fixed progressing to 'free' manner anyhow, against common methods of assault not 'karate' techniques!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#259027 - 06/02/06 08:25 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: shoshinkan]
Eveal Offline
the freshmaker

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 303
Please explain this alittle further for me. I think I am missing it. Thanks!
_________________________
Be "Water" my friend!

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#259028 - 06/02/06 09:06 AM Re: Real karate starts where kata ends [Re: Eveal]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Not a problem,

you said -

'Forms do not teach you how to recover from an attack if you been hit in the face or how to react if an opponent is pressuring you.'

but drills with partners do! Kumite of karate, or as i call it kata 'study' and application, not just performance.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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