When referring to the Bubishi and shooting we find both advice on how to attack and how to counter.
In Mccarthy translation, self defense diagram 10 counters shoot by attacking temple or ears.
Diagram 11 talks about scooping the legs. Diagram 12 about scooping one leg. Diagram 18 on seizing the leg
and pushing on the inside of the knee or hip joint (shoot). Diagram 21 about seizing one leg and kicking the other.
Diagram 24 on throwing over you while dropping to the ground. Diagram 29 about scooping the leg. Diagram 33 about counters to trips or take downs (seize hair, poke eyes, grab groin).
All these principles are found back in goju-ryu kata's.(saifa, seiunchin,sanseru, sesan, sepai).
So I state that shoot and anti shoot techniques and tactics are incorporated in kata.
Diagram 38 talks about the sprawl, when an opponent grabs you in an effort to throw you, shift back a little to offset his balance, shop down on his arms or back or head.
This specific tactic is found in seiunchin first 3 steps, yama-uke and at the end, dropping the elbows down while stepping back.

In Karate the advice is not to fight from the ground but to get up quickly (in view of multiple opponents).
There is however influence from Fukien dog boxing, with techniques working somebody down by attacking the legs. We find some of these techniques in the Bubishi
(described here above).

Are there better methods of training SD(bar fight perspective) than karate? Yep I think so.
Go to a decent Muay Thai gym 3 times a week for a year and youre in shape and have the technique and sparring experience for most bar fight encounters. But unless youre either prepared to explore deeply into the history of Muay Thai or involve yourselve in the sport side, there is not much variation in training.

Karate in that regard has to offer a very wide variation in techniques and principles, all to be explored from the it's legacy : the kata's.
There is no limit towards exploring the potential of kata and it allows you to investigate other MA's and relate
these concepts back to kata. That's where the kata ends and real karate begins.

Good posting CVV, good thought out thread.

Just one thing I would like to point out to anybody who is reading this forum and didnt know. There are written articles about most martial arts subjects in the

READING ROOM

Small print at the top of this page,above

FIGHTING ARTS.

(I have been reading them for years).

Amongst the headings for some excellent written articles is an article by Jeff Brooks about.

KATA AND APPLICATION.
Rediscovering The Wealth Of Kata
By Jeff Brooks

Here he discusse techniques IN KATA lost and rediscovered by re engineering.

Grappling is also mentioned

Perhaps worth reading? .

I think Victor also has an article there?

Thanks

Perhaps you put your version of karate kata in to practice.

Perhaps if you read articles in the reading room?

The growth of a persons art is limited by a closed mind
perhaps your mind is to closed.

I agree with what has been said perhaps you need to go to another dojo and ask if you could train for a day.

They might show you your weakness.


Thanks

Hi
Ref the vidio?
From which perspective would you like to discuss?
Or has it got to the stage where you might have lost interest?

Sometimes what we see as a closed mind is just a mind that looks at things from a different angle. This is a good trait, as then things can be seen that before were hidden from view. Because his knowledge and view differs from your own does not make him close minded, and to see it like this may instead make you close minded.

Its amazing how people re-act.


CVV You stated that Thai boxing training might be a better self defence than karate in a bar fight?
Ok enough said.
It would seem out training methods are worlds apart .
Good luck

It would seem our training methods are worlds apart.