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#259079 - 06/05/06 11:50 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: medulanet]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

I always saw sprawling in kata. Mainly in the front stance and some from my naihanchi practice, but not so much in what the legs were doing, but in the hips, its there, believe me.




I wonder if anyone could show a clip or something so we can point out exactly where these things are. I'd really like to see.
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#259080 - 06/05/06 11:53 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: swseibukan]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

And I’ll ask you again. Outside of sporting events or playground altercations, how many times have you seen someone open with a shot?




"again"? Had you asked this before? Anyway, I've seen that many times, but I don't think personal anecdotes are going to satisfy anyone on anything here.
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#259081 - 06/05/06 11:55 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: swseibukan]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
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Quote:

karate and the application represented in kata where designed for self defense against the untrained not for matched engagement against trained fighters.




This part is key, and might have saved several pages of posting.
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#259082 - 06/05/06 02:01 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
Ok I have seen people use takedowns in street fights quite a few times some were quite good. First a shot to the head then the takedown. To be unprepared for current techniques is foolish. People see them, people will use them. Whenever I use a takedown in legal stuff( I avoid street fights by the way to many people with weapons) I realy try not to stay on the ground I get up and fight from that position.


And yeah I know if I stay on the ground or go down such and such a body might decide to kick me. In karate there are excellent defence’s against kicks to the face/body while being on the ground…… In kata….. Not the best place to be but they can be usefull should I find myself there. To think I wouldn’t at some time find myself there and not be able to use techniques available to me again is foolish. They can be good counter attacks. If I should pull them off.


The ancient Okinawa drawings from where it has been said a lot of karate techniques came from actualy show a character doing a takedown.

Therefore there had to be a counter.
I cant see them not having a good counter and considering the sprawl is one of the better counters it must be in the
Karate katas? Perhaps??

It is.

Look around at people performing katas, with, I might add, effective bunkia.




Errrm totally do not agree with this statement about karate not being effective for use against trained fighters.It depends how you train. The karate I see is a way of becoming a trained fighter. The comment “is your cup full” was used not long back on this thread and I agree with it.
I consider my self a trained fighter who is still training and learning.


Using claw hands one fingers etc is the bread and butter of some katas.Old masters use to train them on the makawari. Look at the photos of their hand/finger development.Saying because they cant be trained in a live situation makes them Obsolete or un usable in the correct circumstances(check your local legal definintion here) is some thing on the lines of;
Why are they in katas?
Why did the masters train them? cant see them practicing on live opponents?
or perhaps lets totaly change all the karate techniques and wear huge sparring gloves while walking the streets at night.



This is going to sound a bit bizarre. If you would care to watch a vidio of tekki//naihanchi
1,2,and 3 (there are quite a few free downloads on the internet) and watch them being performed. See if you see can a defence against a Takedown. The original naihanchi kata was said to have been lost.

Ok
One of the problems I have encountered in karate, and indeed other martial arts such as ju jitsu, is that it techniques were, in some cases, toned down for one reason or another like educational use or techniques just lost or forgotten and then re-found.

Speaking for myself I have had to learn what was available and then keep learning and in a way go back to where it started.
.

In kata it isn’t always easy to see what the technique is meant to be.
Poss what was meant with the masters saying it takes years to master one kata.



My cup isn’t and will never be full considering the amount of learning required.


What is with the easter bunny stuff???

It aint easter here. And what exactly is the argument here?? Might this be a wrestler versus ju jitsu verses karate or what ever is the best style scenario? Or has it got that confusing?

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#259083 - 06/05/06 03:01 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: adaca]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

This is going to sound a bit bizarre. If you would care to watch a vidio of tekki//naihanchi
1,2,and 3 (there are quite a few free downloads on the internet) and watch them being performed. See if you see can a defence against a Takedown.




Alright, post one up here and let's have a look. (and, why would that sound bizarre?)
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#259084 - 06/05/06 03:21 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
Quote:

Quote:

isn't shooting a technique that is varied high/ waist/low to close the distance grab the opponent and take to the ground?

Please correct me if i am wrong that's how we learn. From my experince thats what wrestlers have done to me as shooting making up the distance going for my waist or legs.





A 'shot' (short for leg shot), and not a throw, a trip, a foot sweep, a front headlock, a bearhug, or an arm drag, etc. is generally understood as an offensive technique wherein the attacker sets up the shot by moving the opponent into position, controling or clearing defensive options such as the hands, changes levels, steps or 'penetrates' past the leading edge of the opponent's defense (usually where the feet are at the time the shot is executed), seizes and controls one or both legs, and finishes for a takedown.

A lot of things can happen both prior to and immediately following a shot.

When a proper shot is executed it happens much faster and harder than some people seem to think. Take my previous advice and go work takedowns with a good wrestler and then decide for yourself what is actually reasonable and likely.




kusojiji,

so we can agree what a shot is, i DID NOT mention a specific hold or thow or anything. It's the act in itself to pass the guards and and connect to control the opponent and usually ends up on the ground.

we both agree to understand a wrestler one must practice with a wrestler.

But i say again if you want to figure how to deture a shot look within your style and try some things out. Don't look at your style so one sided explore the possibilties think for yourself you may find something there you have never seen before. Trial and error thats how we make discoveries of new things (that were already there).

If you don't have a teacher that can help you well it's up to you, can't stay in the nest forever and expect food to be handed to you the rest of your life. Time to fly and hunt for yourself, sure at first it will be hard and you will want to quit. You just have to find out what works for you.

If that means going and taking wrestling sure do that. Cross train that is a valid form of training, but its harder to think and face humiliation time and time again till you find something within your style that you can use effectively. But the reward is that you help the system your in evolve and become more and have something to share with other in the same system.

Don't get me wrong some have done this and started their own style because of it that are just crap. But others take many years of studying to figure things out and trial and error. Take Isshinryu, the founder didn't study for 3 years then go hey I have a new karate style, no it took many years of training, blood,sweat and even some ridicule from others.

My point being don't sell yourself short or the style that your in. I would also like to ask what style of karate are you in so i may learn about it and it's history so i can see where you are comming from


Edited by edecco (06/05/06 04:17 PM)

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#259085 - 06/05/06 05:24 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Neko456 - Once you know how to grapple its not that hard to defend against a shoot even from a good grappler.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kusojio - This is just the kind of unrealistic thinking that I was concerned about...



I don't see why you consider a tackle or a dbl/single leg that hard to defend against. Grapplers and other MAs do it all the times. There are strikers that seem almost impossible to takedown.

Obviously you are new to shooting that you see it as such a marvelous method attack. Do you run when someone shoot for your legs or do you respond. If you can do it might not others have those skils are better. Old hats don't see shooting as that difficult a technque to counter or destroy.

And realistically how often in a real fight would you want to tackle a guy like that on the street, Me from Past expereince Never, concrete east your knees & elbows up, and Lord if you miss, Katie bar the door.

The real techniques of Kata prevents you from having to resort to last dicht efforts of leg tackling a guy in a real fight. Maybe a body slam but none of this both of us rolling on the concret stuff. Unless you just got to.Get real!!!

If You know nothing of Realism why try to make that point.


Edited by Neko456 (06/05/06 05:32 PM)

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#259086 - 06/05/06 06:57 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Neko456]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
A good skilled wrestler WILL take you down almost without fail if you just stand there and try to hit them. Those kata grappling defense moves may work sometimes but rarely, especially against a much larger opponent, whereas wrestling takedown defenses work quite well against larger opponents. Having wrestled two years, against some very, very good wrestlers, I know how hard it is to defend a takedown that's well set up. You want to know how to effectively defend a takedown? Learn to block shots and sprawl well , and learn to drive their head into the ground after blocking and sprawling. Kneeing to the face you say, as a takedown defense? Unlikely to work. I've had that done to me before and it didn't work, I still got the takedown, and dominant position, and this was striking and grappling training combined. Other than that, when they shoot in you can pull a BJJ guard and combine that with a quick guilotine choke. Now that has worked wel lagainst me, on several occasions.
A good wrestler will take you down before you have any idea what's going on.
Why do you think they use wrestling and BJJ to defend against takedowns and throws and stuff in the UFC and other MMA NHB events? Because it works.
Try your kata moves against a good 3 or 4 year wrestler, or better, than tell us how well those techniques work. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but they are much lower percentage defense against takedowns. And a football tackle is not a good takedown, it's just plain stupid.

Not to say shooting is unstoppable but you really have to pressure test the techniques for defending them.


Edited by Stormdragon (06/05/06 07:12 PM)
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#259087 - 06/05/06 07:03 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: Neko456]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:


I don't see why you consider a tackle or a dbl/single leg that hard to defend against.




At the risk of repeating myself, that attitude tells me that you have very little experience in this area.

Quote:

There are strikers that seem almost impossible to takedown.




No, there aren't. There are strikers who want to think they are impossible to take down. The kind of painful disappointment that results from such an attitude is what I'd like to see you avoid.

Quote:

Obviously you are new to shooting that you see it as such a marvelous method attack.




LOL! Now that is funny. Not sure if its inherent illogic or ironically extreme misreading is the most amusing part.


Quote:

Old hats don't see shooting as that difficult a technque to counter or destroy.




Those would not be old hats, they would be delusional hats.

Quote:

And realistically how often in a real fight would you want to take down a guy on the street




As often as circumstances warranted.


Quote:

The real techniques of Kata prevents you from having to resort to last dicht efforts of leg tackling a guy in a real fight.




This kind of categorical bias is awfully hard for me to take seriously.

Quote:

If You know nothing of Realism why try to make that point.




Funny YOU should say that...
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#259088 - 06/05/06 07:22 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: kusojiji]
edecco Offline
Member

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 65
kusojiji,
I had asked this question just a couple of posts before could you help me out with the answer please.

"I would also like to ask what style of karate are you in so i may learn about it and it's history so i can see where you are comming from."


Edited by edecco (06/05/06 07:23 PM)

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