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#259209 - 06/09/06 02:29 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: oldman]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

K,
Lets see if we can agree on something from the start. The best place to learn to defend against the shoot is by working with highly skilled wrestlers. Would you say thats the case?




That would be the case, in my experience.
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#259210 - 06/09/06 02:35 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: BrianS]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

A wrestler doesn't mind much that his head is in a position to get him choked.




Wrong. If an attacker is in position for a JJ guilletine, he is also in position for a front headlock should the defender manage to sprawl out.

Head position is important for a wrestler.
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#259211 - 06/09/06 02:36 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: BrianS]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Start from a sprawl?? How do you do that?




As a training exercise, wrestlers do that fairly often BECAUSE you don't want to let anyone get behind you. Positional control is paramount.
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#259212 - 06/09/06 03:13 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Oldman, you can't be serious, there are guillotines all over kata. In naihanchi nidan, wankan, wanshu, and gojushiho or at least in Matsubayashi Ryu.

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#259213 - 06/09/06 09:26 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Med,
I'm just taking an opportunity to walk through a few things. Kusojiji had asked a few questions that I wanted to "tackle" so to speak. You know me I all about finding common ground. First I wanted to agree that the best place to learn to defend against the shoot is by working with people that do it well. One thing to keep in mind is that in all the clips that were shown 50% of the wrestlers were unable to defend against the take down. So, it's not that karate has no defense against the shoot wrestlers are in a similar predicament. Second what is a common defense seen in UFC/MMA competion? The Guillotine. If people agree it is a viable and credible defense the question would be where is it in kata? He had asked to see examples either photo or video. Hmmmm... where would I find something like that?

Now I have already agreed that on of the best ways to learn to defend against the shoot is by working with wrestlers. If I was able to provide Kusojiji with visual aids regarding the guillotine in kata I thought that since he is a reasonable guy he might be able to agree that using the technique found in the kata and training it appropriately might provide an old man a modest amount of protection against a drunken clumsey shootist. Against Dan Gable in his prime? Hmmmm?...not so much.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/2325/shoot4pm.jpg

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#259214 - 06/09/06 09:59 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: oldman]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
Hi old man As you poss already know

karate ka like Ian Abernethy,Elmar Schmeisser's and more have done excellent work in the field of bunkia or another way of putting it, what is this technique and how to use it after learning the kata.

The guillotene, takedowns do appear in a few katas,as so does the counters.
I have trained such techniques for a while now
with other karate ka and wrestlers, there wasnt much difference in their techniques. Then used them in MMA s


I completly agree with your statement that some times any body can get caugth with a take down,or any technique for that matter, me included then it is a case of defending from the floor and getting back up.


Again the defence is in kata.


To answer some questions that most people ask about bunkia perhaps a study of the works of some of these people might be worth while.

Spose it is another study


Another learning curve.


Either way i think at least people are thinking about it,I described how I dealt with some of these situations early on.

I am still learning.

Thanks

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#259215 - 06/09/06 10:05 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: adaca]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
adaca,
Quote:

I am still learning.




Me too, and looking for common ground.

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#259216 - 06/09/06 10:22 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: oldman]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
http://www.iainabernethy.com/videos/videos_karates_bunkai_jutsu2.asp


If you mean common ground as in karate/ grappling perhaps read this or borrow the dvd ?

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#259217 - 06/09/06 10:56 AM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: adaca]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
No I mean common ground between contentious forum folks.

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#259218 - 06/09/06 12:55 PM Re: from a wrestling perspective... [Re: oldman]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
suppose!!!

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