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#257809 - 05/30/06 08:04 PM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
peter586 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 110
but fighting underwater with weights on is what i meant where u would have proper footing.. like underwater theres more resistance than on land right so working against that resistance is gona leave your movements easyer on land right..but maybe your right it is probly a gay idea and theres probly beter ways but i still dont see how it could do any bad

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#257810 - 05/31/06 01:00 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Cord
Fact #3: Practicing kata in water has provided the advantages of kata training with no discernable disadvantage(s).

Your opinion is not supported by facts, so far. Is that going to be a problem for you?

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#257811 - 05/31/06 01:23 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Legend of the Hungry Wolf]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

"Almost anybody in our school could put a punch through you that was a "stopper"... "-wristtwister

whats a stopper???




Stopper : Someone who hides behind a screenname,is old,makes generic claims that he cannot back up,ad or is addicted to ensure.

I use to hold classes underwater,but it was hard for the students to understand what I was saying.

In my opinion training 'in' water does more harm than good.People just like to do things different and justify the training.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#257812 - 05/31/06 02:14 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

Cord
Fact #3: Practicing kata in water has provided the advantages of kata training with no discernable disadvantage(s).

Your opinion is not supported by facts, so far. Is that going to be a problem for you?





How is Cord's opinion not supported by fact? Your core muscles and proper grounding generate power and it has much less to do with your chest, biceps and triceps than many would like to believe. Your not bettering either by training in the water as Cord has already explained. The resistance under water will be focused on the limbs that are performing the movement and the muscles that guide them; it will have no “positive” effect on your balance.

Quote:

Fact #1: I train in the water.

Fact #2: I am as effective as anyone.




There is only one fact here, that you train underwater. The rest is nothing more than your opinion. You can't call yourself "as effective as anyone" simply because you don't know what anyone's level of effectiveness is. If for the sake of argument you are as effective as "anyone" that doesn't mean it's attributed to your underwater training. I'd be willing to bet if you took out the underwater training completely for 6 months and either continued with the rest of your normal routine or added core exercises you would see yourself improve.

The only effective underwater training i see being effective is for those who may find themselves needing to defend themselves underwater or in the case of a life guard needing to be able to gain control of an individual who is drowning. Otherwise train how you fight.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257813 - 05/31/06 02:45 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
laf7773
Re: Fact #2: I've witnesses mentioned in my blog.

Re: Fact #3: Cord has not presented any facts, nor have you.

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#257814 - 05/31/06 02:47 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

laf7773
Re: Fact #2: I've witnesses mentioned in my blog.

Re: Fact #3: Cord has not presented any facts, nor have you.






_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#257815 - 05/31/06 03:06 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Then i should be under the impression that you feel your power is generated purely through your arms? Do you deny that power is generated through proper grounding and your core? Proper body mechanics are paramount when it comes to striking, do you disagree with this? You can't achieve proper body mechanics through underwater training for the simple fact that you are removing gravity and adding resistance in the wrong manner and at the wrong time. What you are improving is push power not power in impact.

Quote:

laf7773
Re: Fact #2: I've witnesses mentioned in my blog.

Re: Fact #3: Cord has not presented any facts, nor have you.




What exactly does your 'witnesses" prove? How do they prove you are "as effective as anyone " and how does it prove that underwater training is the cause of this effectiveness?

It's real simple. Force is generated from the ground up. Proper body alignment (grounding) and your core muscle group are what give you punching power. There are those who can hit hard simply because they are strong but this isn't the rule.

Maybe you need to re-evaluate what it is in your work out that is giving you positive effects. Just because your "witnesses" are telling you that you are effective (regardless of if it's true) doesn't mean it's coming from underwater training.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257816 - 05/31/06 03:34 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Stealthdozer, I understand where your coming from. i read that bio taken from your blog, and I am sure that you have been training in water for many years, possibly on the advice, or based on habits instilled in you, by the teachers that you reference, and obviously respect highly.
In some way, me criticising water training, you are taking as an oblique criticism of your teachers and/or your considerable experience.You have years invested in water training, based on the advice of people you hold in high regard. I am just words on a screen. Who am I to criticise?
Its the mindset from which we derive the truism 'you cant teach an old dog new tricks'.

as I have said, if you enjoy-and believe in, water training, then best of luck to you.

I was a well thought of fitness professional, and have 10 years experience working with people to make them perform better. I have worked with national level athletes, boxers, and also handled physio and conditioning for a professional soccer team. I would be a terrible MA instructor- not where my skill lies.

By that very reasoning, your MA masters, and yourself, can be exceptional Artists, yet you have to acknowledge that this does not, by default, ensure a professional level of conditioning knowledge. Pilots leave the design of the planes they fly to a group of specialists. The relationship between athlete, skill coach(s) and conditioning trainer(s) shares a parallel to this. Very different skills brought together to make a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

My facts are simple biomechanics and kinesiology, backed up by scientific research in those fields. i am sorry if that annoys you, but if its any consolation, your illusions seem far too strong to shatter
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#257817 - 05/31/06 04:14 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Cord
Hello. I used to post here. I was disturbed when a 40 years old adolescent selling the latest "realistic training" fad challenged a pair of 12 years olds to a fight, then challenged me to a duel when I voiced my disgust. I was invited to travel to his gym, at my expense, of course. Why are some people foolish like that?

I was disappointed that fellow posters in this community remained silent at this bully. Silence is acquiescence, I think.

I hope you’ll understand when I state my patience here is strained.

If I may refer to my original statement, I do not limit my training to the water only: just kata. I also lift weights, punch both heavy bags & speed bags, swim laps, & slog the stair-master.

The water is where I perform kata (& swim laps). I’ve been doing so since the early 1970’s, & now perform kata almost exclusively in the water, often before & after swimming laps. The thing is, & I hope you understand this distinction, I do not use kata to teach myself power & speed. No one asked that question.

My kata is an artifact passed to me by my teachers. My kata is a dance to teach breathing. I breathe as well as anyone, thus my conclusion – based on this fact – that I am as effective as anyone. The surf, especially, I found effective at helping balance: lifting weights (free-weights, naturally), even more so. My opinion is that all the power & speed in the world is useless without proper breathing & balance.

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#257818 - 05/31/06 04:25 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Stealth,

It's nothing personal,really. We all have our opinions and our experiences. It's all good! If training kata in the water has benefitted you I would keep doing it! It's no one elses business to tell you how to train.

As far as the other matter goes this site has had dramatic changes in the last year.Things are much better here. Virtual challenges and other things won't be tolerated. Look at all the moderators we have on board now!
I hope you stick around and post more. You seem to have experiencesalot of us could benefit from.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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