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#257789 - 05/28/06 01:49 AM underwater training
peter586 Offline

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 110
hi does anyone know the benifits of underwater training i read on another site that it improves speed it seems logical but im not sure does anyone know if it improves speed or power

#257790 - 05/28/06 02:04 AM Re: underwater training [Re: peter586]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Speed, power, balance. It is a full body workout.
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da

#257791 - 05/28/06 02:11 AM Re: underwater training [Re: TeK9]
peter586 Offline

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 110
realy thats awsome im gona do it all the time now thanks

#257792 - 05/28/06 03:27 AM Re: underwater training [Re: peter586]
SpeedyGonzales Offline

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
It's okay to do it for fun in the pool but really it doesn't really help enough to the point you have to make it a regular thing.

Muhammed Ali claimed to do that but really it was a publicity thing for a Time Magazine article.

The only time I can think of anyone actually doing it was in track we did running drills in the pool in the summer butr really it was for fun not really for training since it was just the summer.

#257793 - 05/28/06 03:49 AM Re: underwater training [Re: TeK9]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.

Speed, power, balance. It is a full body workout.

Absolute nonsense. With your weight effectively diminished in water, you cannot ground yourself sufficiently to transmit full power into a technique, nor is it possible to maintain natural balance/coordination through the techniques, add to this that by removing gravity from the equation diminishes basic core function from the training, and these factors render it a useless activity best left to Van Damme in Kickboxer.

If you want to use water effectively, then get a floatation vest/belt and work your cardio by water 'running'. Originaly a rehab exercise, it is now used increasingly by long distance runners/triathletes, to limit the amount of high impact work in their training. It is exhausting.

And dont forget the obvious action of swimming. HIIT length sprints are fantastic for balanced conditioning.

Doing your strikes/kata in water is no different to 'Aquafit' or water aerobics classes. When you see a lean powerful athlete who credits his attributes to joining the pensioners in the pool on a weekday morning, you let me know
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#257794 - 05/28/06 06:00 AM Re: underwater training [Re: peter586]
Stealthdozer Offline

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
I train in the water, performing my kata in the pool (autumn to spring) or the surf (during summer). I also lift weights, punch both heavy bags & speed bags, swim laps, & slog the stair-master.

I enjoy working against the resistance of the water. Id rather not punch air. Timing my techniques in the surf is also entertaining. I find training in the water more effective as I find training in the water more enjoyable. It is training frequently that increases speed & power. I keep just my head above water.

I should note that I am heavy & dense: I weigh 225lbs (16 stone), at 15% Body Fat. I might not be hydrodynamic, but I am fairly waterproof. Other body-types may not enjoy water training as much as I do.

~ Dozer

#257795 - 05/28/06 06:52 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Training in water for enjoyment is perfectly fine. We should all fit as much enjoyment into our lives as possible, but for those seeking purely for improved physical performance for their efforts, martail arts techniques in water are not the best way to go.
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#257796 - 05/28/06 09:23 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
There goes Cord, obliterating another training myth

Oh well, back to my 2000 press-ups, hopefully I'll look really ripped after this

#257797 - 05/28/06 10:12 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Cord, I'm afraid I have to question your brilliance on this one.

When I started karate, we trained in the YMCA swimming pool, doing basics and kata, and learning to use the resistance of the water to make our techniques function "in or out" of the water. The dynamic pressure on all the body causes you to be slower in most cases, and the goal was to move as quickly in the water as we did "dry".

Fast forward a while, and go to the beach. We trained there, where we ran on the sand, climbed sand dunes, and then did kata and techniques "against the waves" that clearly knocked us off balance. The goal there was to reagain our balance and execute technique. We also learned a lot about not meeting force "head on" from ocean training.

Maybe you don't think it did any good, but my long term experience is that it taught us a lot, both about our own reactions to movement, and about our balance. We also used a large trampoline and weight room equipment to train.

Almost anybody in our school could put a punch through you that was a "stopper"... which factors back into that argument about "one punch" training (argument for another day). I would attribute those skills to all of the methods we used, and water training was a part of that.

What we learned in the water was that you had to work punches and kicks "along the body centerline" so that they didn't "float independently" when you punched and kicked, and kept the body as centered as possible when in the water. There were too many other nuances to go into a "listing" here, but we found the training to be very effective, and helped our power tremendously.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#257798 - 05/28/06 12:52 PM Re: underwater training [Re: wristtwister]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
when you throw a technique in water, as you say, there is resistance greater than experienced in the air around you, resistance is a tool for improving strength, so why do I dispute the logic of power through water resistance? you ask.

i think that we all agree, no matter what style we study, that bar from a small number of specific techniques, our power is generated from our legs, hips and core, then merely transmitted into relevant limbs as tools of contact.

By removing gravitational force from your techniques, you prevent the 'anchoring' necessary for correct power generation, and the effort moves into the muscles of the limbs as they force themselves through the water. I am not against having stronger arms, adductors and abductors, but they are not what should be concentrated on if a hard strike is your goal.
By using the supporting buoyancy of water, you instantly alleviate stress on the core muscles- the very things that need to be worked and strengthened, not nursed and given the day off when you train.

On the question of balance, due to the support of the water, your reaction time needs to be much slower to rectify your balance in water than on land, thus you are conditioning yourself to react slower, not better.

Their is also a subtle difference in the biomechanics of a strike in water, as you are not using your energy purely to drive a limb forward under force, but also using effort to prevent your body moving away from the punch. Familiarising your body to expect such an alien reaction when on land hampers your muscular coordination. I know that you need to bare down on a strike on impact to transfer the full energy into your target, but to condition yourself to experience this resistence through the whole range of the movement is counter intuitive to the speed and accelaration needed for a hard punch. You are effectively 'pushing' your strike, and as we all know, a 'pushed' punch is as much good as a jelly full of pudding.

As with any physical persuit, the conditioning training and the activity are not the same things.

Learning to use your muscles explosively, with excellent balance and neuromuscular coordination within the environment you practice your art, will do you far better than reverse punching your local pool into a froth.

movements like cleans, jerks and snatches, along with concentrated short burst power drills on a heavy bag condition the body to be fast and powerfull, it is then up to you to apply this increased power to your techniques.

A bullet fired through the air will kill a man, a bullet fired into water breaks up, its power dissipated after 1.5 meters. Why condition you body to have its power thwarted?
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

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