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#257849 - 06/05/06 02:07 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
What do you believe the effects of water training on martial arts are?

How do you feel underwater training has positively effected your training?

What references can you site that counter Cord's position?

There is nothing leading about these questions, they are direct and on topic, any other problems? Feel free to commit all the personal attacks you wish, your not hurting my feelings, only showing your nature. If you don't care what my "malfunction" is then just ignore me.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257850 - 06/05/06 03:19 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
OK, I am now officialy confused.

Stealthdozer, you have been at great lengths to interperate and clarify your initial point of view as being that you do not use water training for speed and power conditioning, but that you felt it helped focus your breathing and technique during Kata. You have stated that for power and speed you lift free weights and hit the heavy bag amongst other things.

By your revised and clarified thoughts on this matter (stated repeatedly in response to Laff), we should, in the sane world, now be in agreement, and yet here you go again playing the Doubting Thomas in regards to opinion asserted by me that, in theory, echo's your own.

a brief summary of what has come before.

Cord/Laff: water training no good for speed and power conditioning

Stealth: I have done it for years and I am very effective- what are you basing your opinions on? Give me proof.

Cord: I was a professional trainer for 10 years working with top level athletes, and my facts are based on basic kinesiology.

Stealth: Oh OK, well, I was just using water for breathing practice anyway, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cord: Whatever. Peace.

Laff: Dude, you just tried to cover up some major backpedaling, and i am not gonna let you get away with it

Stealth: No I didnt, you are a weasel for spotting my contradictory nature- I demand we go round in circles for 2 pages while i say I breath well and call you names, whilst repeatedly saying I dont use water to develop speed and power

Laff:

Hedkikr: I like doing mister Miagi stuff on the beach for power, speed and balance

Cord: Hey man, if you enjoy it its all good, but you could spend your time more effectively, and be carefull running on sand- it can lead to injuries.

Stealthdozer: even though I have just spent days saying water is no good for strength and power, I am compelled to disagree with Cord for sharing the same opinion. I demand he defend his (our?) standpoint

You want to see a heavyweight boxer punching water? you will have a long wait. They dont do it. They do functional HIIT, heavy bag work, olympic lifts, plyometrics, and sprint drills- all on land, and on a surface that allows the maximum direct use of power, thats the same choice made by pretty much every athlete I have seen/heard of.

If the science, and the results, from water training had proved themselves superior over the years, then it would be used widely in all persuits. As it is, even top level swimmers spend a lot of time doing out of water conditioning to improve their power and fitness- they then apply these attributes to their swimming.

If water work isnt even the best thing to build power for swimming, then what hope it helps us land lubbers?

Of course, there is no disagreement here, right? I mean you just use water for breathing remember.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#257851 - 06/05/06 04:11 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
laf7773
What do you believe the effects of water training on martial arts are?
1) I avoid punching air. My impact work is done on a heavy bag, a speed bag, & occasionally a makiwara. For developing raw power, I suspect that punching air is as useless as punching water. Perhaps because I am a heavyweight, punching air for long workouts feels detrimental to the health of my joints. Punching in the water feels better than punching in the air to me.

2) My kata teaches breathing. I know breathing is not glamorous. Breathing is fundamental to effectiveness (e.g., "speed & power" - a fairly inaccurate term, I think, but thatís a tangent). Good breathing will enable gains in effectiveness.

3) It can be beneficial to practice kata under less than pristine conditions.

4) Driving against the current in the Morse River estuary at Popham Beach has a visceral impact on balance, footwork, & strength. After high tide, when the surf has driven a massive amount of water into the riverís mouth, the flow outward can be invigorating to stand against. I have seen the current knock several people heads-over-heels. I invite any one whom doubts me to try it. To stand against the flow also "shows my nature".


How do you feel underwater training has positively effected your training?
See above?

What references can you site that counter Cord's position?
Thatís just it: there are none, either way. It all sounds good until one ponders it awhile. It is honest to answer the original question with "this is how I was taught", or "this is how I train". It is honest to question training methods, & to explore better ways. It is not so honest to imply that - based on no facts at all - there is no point in training in the water.

There is nothing leading about these questions, they are direct and on topic, any other problems? Feel free to commit all the personal attacks you wish, youíre not hurting my feelings, only showing your nature.
Fair enough. Then you edited your statement, adding If you don't care what my "malfunction" is then just ignore me. You finally ask honest questions, then you fire off another flame?

Cord
Is that how you interpret this? In your "Stealthdozer, I understand where your coming from" reply I assumed you had stopped attacking me & was making a gesture of goodwill. I reciprocated by letting your fallacies slide while trying to explain that the benefit of water training might not be what one may at first assume.

My mistake, I see. I am no diplomat.

I mean no challenge when I point out that my teachers & trainers have decades of experience on you.

I am a heavyweight in the water. The people at my gym see this six days a week. If you think kata is not about breathing, try kata whilst holding your breath.

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#257852 - 06/05/06 06:15 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
And does 'jack' specificaly get all his boxers to punch water? Of course not, otherwise you would not have posted that you 'would like' to see a heavyweight boxer do such training- his boxers would be splashing beside you. I would presume that he has no interest in your soggy-soke Kata, and rather sensibly, gets you to punch bags and sparring partners. Thats what his experience has taught him.

What is it with this breathing you are so obsessed about referencing? Life teaches you to breath from the moment you plop out of your mother. 'I breath as well as anyone' is a dumb statement- do you breath as well, or better, than an asthmatic? what about those with congenital heart failure?

'i am a heavyweight in water' erm ok, but you are heavier out of it, and that is rather the functional crux of the problem isnt it?

one of your responses was that 'the honest response to the first question is this is how I was taught, or this is how I train'

Very telling. And leads me back to one of my original posts about you having time, effort, and pride invested in this training method, and so are not receptive to criticism of it, as it is indestinguishable from criticism of you.
Thats not the case.

If you want reference material as to cutting edge research on power and speed training concepts, try westside Barbell, Parisi speed school, Paul Check, and the wealth of scientificaly founded academic research that makes its way onto the pages of T-nation.com, many articles written by top flight conditioning coaches, not TKD instructors with worryingly young wives.

i refuse to get involved with a circular argument where you say the same things over and over, quite frankly, they are not worth hearing the first time round.

my theories are backed by science, and have worked for the literaly thousands of people i have advised over the years.

Your conjecture is based on pride, and on training misconceptions grounded in your head by untrained people in the 70's.

i leave it to the readers of this discussion to draw their own conclusions from the info presented.

Cord out.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#257853 - 06/05/06 06:41 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Cord
Back to attacking me already? I will research (google) on "Westside Barbell", "Parisi Speed School", "Paul Check", & "T-Nation".

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#257854 - 06/05/06 09:47 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
Yattan Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Dallas, TX USA
You guys lay off of Stealth, he's already stated, quite clearly, his position on underwater training.

It does NOT help speed and power, but it does.
No, it's for breathing.
Wait, it's to train for imperfect footing.
Or does it show your nature?

Regardless, the fact is clear that underwater training may or may not help with power and speed but can't be proven either way.....by Stealth.

Back on topic. I swim because it's easier on my joints, good cardio, and fits into my busy schedule since I have a pool at my apartment. I attribute my ability to knock someone into a different political party to core training, proper mechanics, and bag work. But that's just me.

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#257855 - 06/05/06 09:55 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Yattan]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Back on topic. I swim because it's easier on my joints, good cardio, and fits into my busy schedule since I have a pool at my apartment. I attribute my ability to knock someone into a different political party to core training, proper mechanics, and bag work. But that's just me.




No, its not just you old chap, its anyone who has grasped the concepts of how the body works and why.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#257856 - 06/05/06 10:06 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Yattan]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Yattan
You guys lay off of Stealth, he's already stated, quite clearly, his position on underwater training.
To stand until new facts are presented.

It does NOT help speed and power, but it does.
Seemingly true. A nuance too difficult for some?

No, it's for breathing.
Always was. I keep my head above water.

Wait, it's to train for imperfect footing.
Sometimes true.

Or does it show your nature?
Rarely.

Regardless, the fact is clear that underwater training may or may not help with power and speed but can't be proven either way.....by Stealth.
Or others, apparently. Research so far: Nothing.

Back on topic. I swim because it's easier on my joints, good cardio, and fits into my busy schedule since I have a pool at my apartment. I attribute my ability to knock someone into a different political party to core training, proper mechanics, and bag work. But that's just me.
I was not discussing swimming. Enjoy your swim.

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#257857 - 06/05/06 11:18 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
Yattan Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 78
Loc: Dallas, TX USA
Cord,
Other than swimming. Could you suggest some additional low-impact aerobic exercises? I'm kinda scared of damage to my knees down the line, but don't have access to a lot of equipment. I've started doing jump rope because I was informed that it isn't really all that bad for your knees. Other than swimming, I'm kinda at a loss. Any thoughts?

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#257858 - 06/05/06 12:44 PM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
By your comments, I assume that You're a certified athletic trainer/kinesiologist. Assuming that's the case, I'm sure you know your trade better than most.

Just because I live in southern California doesn't mean that I regularly train @ the beach but we have special beach training from time to time. It's a great modification of & enhancement to dojo training. It feeds the body & the spirit. Variety is the spice of life. And like the hypocratic oath "will do no harm".

I'm glad FA has a professional like yourself on board to correct any Bad training methods that actually do harm but you don't need to be demeaning to those of us who don't have the benefit of your schooling & education. I mean, lighten up a bit...your anal sphincter will get a cramp.

owari
(wax on...wax off)

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