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#257829 - 06/01/06 02:31 AM Re: underwater training [Re: theoldone]
ChronicGMV Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 96
Loc: Miami, Florida
El bullshido?

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#257830 - 06/01/06 02:38 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Get your floaties, this may be a long one.

Quote:

I suspect youíre not simply confused? What is being discussed on this thread by you is not necessarily what is being discussed on this thread by me. Get over yourself; please.





Actually what i was referring to was the discussion Cord was having that you disagreed with and attested to as fact that you are proof of the contrary. Do i need to quote your posts again? I'm not confused at all, it's there for all to see and i'm not the only one who sees it.

Quote:

My kata teaches breathing. Try most any kata whilst holding your breath, perhaps youíll see what I mean. My kata is not about a crisp snap, crackle, pop gi, or soaring leaps & kicks.





I never said it was, your reading a bit too much into my posts. I think this says it clearly.
Posted by you..
Quote:

I find training in the water more effective as I find training in the water more enjoyable. It is training frequently that increases speed & power. I keep just my head above water.





I donít' see anything about breathing there. I do however see you doting about how frequent water training increases speed and power, a discussion you now claim to have not been part of.

Quote:

I did not state I use kata to develop speed & power. From my first comment I mentioned other training methods. I also mentioned these methods repeatedly: your delusions changed, not my point.





It looks as though your point did in fact change, but let's see if i have this right; just to make sure my "ignorance" isn't showing again. You say you train kata underwater to help your breathing, so you can breath as good as everyone else and you don't practice kata for speed and power but use other exercises for this. Yet you stated in an early post, which i quoted above, that frequent water training increases speed and power.

Quote:

Your failure to understand Fact #2 does not refute Fact #2. Your ignorance is not my doing.




How exactly does "i'm as effective as anyone" translate to "i can breath as good as anyone"? I'll tell you what a simple fact is. Others were saying that you can't effectively increase speed and power by training underwater where you are neutralizing your core and your response was that your underwater training is the method you used to achieve your level of effectiveness. You said NOTHING about breathing, bench pressing or anything else. Perhaps if you don't want others to misunderstand the point you are trying to get across you should actually make one instead of making two generic statements, one of fact and one of opinion.

Quote:

It is true Iíve ignored your "questions" as (based on your assertions thus far) I can only deduce you are only a deliberately obtuse quibbling weasel defending your willful stupidity. Which of your questions are honest ones?





Nice to see i made a friend. All of my questions were honest; i wouldn't have asked them if i didn't want an answer. But here they are again for your entertainment.

1. Do you feel power is generated in your arms? (in reference to punching power)

(if your answer to #1 is yes then the next 2 will be no, just a hint)
2. Do you deny that power is generated through proper grounding and your core?

3. Do you agree that proper body mechanics are paramount when it comes to striking?

4.What exactly does your 'witnesses" prove?

5.How do they prove you are "as effective as anyone " and how does it prove that underwater training is the cause of this effectiveness?

Quote:

I am confident I can state that I am as effective as anyone, measured thus: I can bench press 340lbs fifteen times, tear a heavy bag free of its chains with a single punch (albeit not deliberately), and I can produce witnesses for this. This is at least average, right? There other measurements we could use: I breathe as well as anyone (also an example Iíve used).





How exactly is this relevant to your underwater training? I'm sure you didn't achieve the ability to bench 340lbs even once by doing kata underwater. Are you saying that your ability to knock a bag off it's chain with one punch is an attribute of your underwater training? Wait you said you train kata underwater for breathing, or did you? It seems as though youíre not sure what you were saying. As well i don't think many others have been able to follow you since your story is in fact changing.

You breathe as well as anyone? I'm hoping you mean you are able to control your breathing better as a result of your underwater kata. Maybe before you start calling people stupid, among other things, you should learn to ARTICULATE your responses better. That way no one, including you, gets confused.

Quote:

Have you any more bluster to add to your trite bullsh*t storm?




Much more, i've been on vacation for a bit but now i'm back and the leash is off

I personally don't care what you train, how you train or why you train but at least be the man you say you are and stick to your convictions and stop back peddling. It's not like anyone is going to forget what you wrote, it's called the back button.

Have a nice day.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257831 - 06/01/06 03:18 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
laff7773
Perhaps you should quote me again, & this time read the words?

My first comment was in reply to peter586ís post, not Cordís.

First sentence:
Quote:

I train in the water, performing my kata in the pool (autumn to spring) or the surf (during summer).


Second sentence:
Quote:

I also lift weights, punch both heavy bags & speed bags, swim laps, & slog the stair-master.


Do you have an attention span problem? Thereís no "back-peddling" here.

I also commented later:
Quote:

It is training frequently that increases speed & power.


I do not limit my self to only water training. I established that in my second sentence of my first comment. I did not state "It is frequent training in water that increases speed & power". Breathing correctly has an effect on speed & power, however.

Also,
Quote:

I keep just my head above water.



Thatís for breathing. See how it ties together?

Your "questions" are not honest. They are leading, & they seem like deliberate misrepresentations Iíve what Iíve said, & thatís being a weasel.

I am as effective as anyone.

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#257832 - 06/01/06 04:18 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Like i said, articulation would make your point clear. If i am misinterpreting what you are saying it's because you aren't expressing yourself clearly. You can sit and spin your statements all you want but what it comes down to is you are pushing the idea that training under water is an effective form of training for the martial arts. When you were presented with facts as to why it's not you began to back peddle and try to re-qualify what you said by changing the meaning of your already vague explanations. Your statement that you are "as effective as anyone" turned into i can breath as good as anyone and i can bench 340lbs 15 times. When you are asked to explain your thoughts on issues that pertain to this discussion you use the copout that the questions are leading and misinterpretations of your own vague statements instead of just answering them. Back peddling and sidestepping, is this another of your kata? The fact is that the questions i asked are pertinent to the discussion, if you read the originating post his question is about the effects of underwater training on speed and power. By the statements you made it leads people to believe you are of the opinion that this type of training IS in fact beneficial to speed and power or you wouldn't have disagreed with what Cord posted. Your lack of willingness to answer such questions, when they are obviously tied directly to the discussion, lead me to believe you have either lied about your training background, experience and possibly age or you have been training since the 70's and have never developed and understanding of body mechanics.

Your leaving a lot of questions unanswered. Questions that could either settle this discussion or draw the curtain. Either way anyoneís inability to understand your point is your own fault.

Quote:

I am as effective as anyone.




Effective at what exactly? Talking in circles?
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257833 - 06/01/06 04:33 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Let us conclude this discussion then:

Water training is good if you enjoy it and will yield results if you stick at it. However if you are purely concerned with performance, then there are many more effective ways to gain those same results.

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#257834 - 06/01/06 05:31 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Like I said, articulation would make your point clearer.
As would reading what I wrote, & asking honest questions if you find me unclear.

If I am misinterpreting what you are saying it's because you aren't expressing yourself clearly.
Isnít the other possibility that the failure to comprehend is yours? Cord seems to have understood. Why not you?

You can sit and spin your statements all you want but what it comes down to is you are pushing the idea that training under water is an effective form of training for the martial arts.
The spin here is yours. Did you actually read your "questions"?

When you were presented with facts as to why it's not you began to back peddle and try to re-qualify what you said by changing the meaning of your already vague explanations.
You presented no facts I saw.

Your statement that you are "as effective as anyone" turned into I can breath as good as anyone and I can bench 340lbs 15 times.
Iíve invited other forms of measurement. What do you suggest?

When you are asked to explain your thoughts on issues that pertain to this discussion you use the copout that the questions are leading and misinterpretations of your own vague statements instead of just answering them.
Your questions were dishonest.

Back peddling and sidestepping, is this another of your kata?
Re: first comment, second sentence. Have you read it yet?

The fact is that the questions I asked are pertinent to the discussion, if you read the originating post his question is about the effects of underwater training on speed and power.
Thus my statement that I performed kata in the water, followed immediately by an overview of the other training methods I use.

By the statements you made it leads people to believe you are of the opinion that this type of training IS in fact beneficial to speed and power or you wouldn't have disagreed with what Cord posted.
What confusion existed between Cord & I is at rest.

Your lack of willingness to answer such questions, when they are obviously tied directly to the discussion, lead me to believe you have either lied about your training background, experience and possibly age or you have been training since the 70's and have never developed and understanding of body mechanics.
Then why did I invite anyone to contact witnesses whoíve seen me I train?

Your leaving a lot of questions unanswered.
Ask honest questions e.g., questions you donít already think you know the answer to.

Questions that could either settle this discussion or draw the curtain.
This discussion was settled yesterday. Pay attention, please.

Either way anyoneís inability to understand your point is your own fault.
Other posters here have understood, apparently. Why not you?

Top
#257835 - 06/01/06 11:54 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

If I am misinterpreting what you are saying it's because you aren't expressing yourself clearly.
Isnít the other possibility that the failure to comprehend is yours? Cord seems to have understood. Why not you?





I wouldn't jump to such conclusions just yet.
Originally posted by Cord:
Quote:

Maybe voicing your thoughts earlier, rather than stunted single sentence responses would have served you better? After all, before conditioning and balance, surely our greatest priority should always be communication




Just because he isn't here actively disagreeing with you doesn't mean he's buying into your little square dance, as i'm sure is the case with a few others here.

Quote:

When you were presented with facts as to why it's not you began to back peddle and try to re-qualify what you said by changing the meaning of your already vague explanations.
You presented no facts I saw.





Never said i did. Cord on the other hand did present several facts stating why water training is NOT beneficial for speed and power, statements that you disagreed with. I simply backed his position, as there was no reason to repeat his same points.

Quote:

Your statement that you are "as effective as anyone" turned into I can breath as good as anyone and I can bench 340lbs 15 times.
Iíve invited other forms of measurement. What do you suggest?




You really don't get it do you? Cord make a fairly lengthy post stating facts on why underwater training is NOT effective for increasing power and speed. You responded Directly to his post stating you train underwater and are as effective as anyone. After you are called out about this statement you then try to re-qualify your statement by saying you can breath as good as anyone. Now you would like others to believe the two statements are of separate meaning and aren't intended to support each other. This is why more than one person here has told you that you are making unclear statements and expecting people to simple KNOW what you are talking about.

Quote:

When you are asked to explain your thoughts on issues that pertain to this discussion you use the copout that the questions are leading and misinterpretations of your own vague statements instead of just answering them.
Your questions were dishonest.




They are not "dishonest" you are dodging. Cord made statements about under water training that you not only disagreed with but also suggested he was stating no facts. I asked you simple questions directly related to the subject that YOU were disputing in an attempt to understand what exactly your beliefs were. Do i think you have some misconceptions about where power is generated? Yes i do but that doesn't make my questions leading or dishonest. They were meant to transition this into a discussion that is inline with the topic of this thread, power and speed. It's funny though that you changed your tune once you found out what Cord's background was in reference to personal training.

Quote:

What confusion existed between Cord & I is at rest.





Is it, or is Cord sitting back having a laugh?

Quote:

Your lack of willingness to answer such questions, when they are obviously tied directly to the discussion, lead me to believe you have either lied about your training background, experience and possibly age or you have been training since the 70's and have never developed and understanding of body mechanics.
Then why did I invite anyone to contact witnesses whoíve seen me I train?





Why should anyone go through the trouble of contacting people we don't know, but you do, to verify statements you made? Who's to say they aren't as deluded as you? What are they going to say? He can bench a lot? He can breath? How will this show that you are "as effective as anyone"?

Quote:

Questions that could either settle this discussion or draw the curtain.
This discussion was settled yesterday. Pay attention, please.





No. You have agreed to disagree with some here, not with me. If you don't want to discuss the statements you have made and continue to dance around then simply don't reply and the discussion is over. Otherwise we are still having a dialog no matter how many times you change your story.

Quote:

Either way anyoneís inability to understand your point is your own fault.
Other posters here have understood, apparently. Why not you?




I can't speak for others here but i doubt their decision to not reply is based on their agreement or understanding of what has transpired in your posts.

Is all the little red capital "I"s your attempt at correcting me? You should really proof read your own posts before throwing such stones.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257836 - 06/01/06 07:06 PM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
laff7773
My first comment, second sentence: I keep going back there, & that's not "changing my story".

YOUR QUESTIONS DO NOT SEEM HONEST TO ME.

I'm not going to tell you don't cherry-pick words taken out of context & misconstrue what is here. It's all you are capable of, apparently. I am going to keep refering to the second sentence of my first comment. How's that for "sticking to a story"?

I doubt anyone still reading this considers breathing, conditioning, stretching, even attitude as having no impact on "speed & power". Kata in water is a part of a whole: FIRST COMMENT, SECOND SENTENCE.

I suspect many have been brainwashed in the dogma that a classic reverse punch, for example, bursts from a grounded stance, is torqued through the hips, & up a straight back, with one shoulder level with the other & driving an extended arm out from the centerline & into a fist corkscrewed just so at the end of the punch whilst the opposite arm drives backward, hopefully all with a pretty little gi "pop" for effect, & a sharp exhale (there's that breathing-thing, again). It's not like I don't get it.

What is being overlooked is that this is not a pristine world. Miyamoto Musashi warned against "indoor techniques" in Go Rin No Sho. This is one of those memes he was talking about: techniques that work "indoors" but not necesarily "in the field". He also advised one to train for bad footing.

FIRST COMMENT; SECOND SENTENCE: WHAT DOES IT READ?

Where I truly "concerned" that you think I'm back-peddling, wouldn't I just edit my entries? Isn't that what weasels do? I don't fret that idiots "called me", either.

I have practiced kata in snow deep & shallow. I have practiced kata in oceans & on mountains; ash, gravel, & stone. I have practiced kata barefoot, shod in sneakers, & in steel-toed work boots. I have practiced kata neck-deep in a estuaries (that's against a rip-tide for you flatlanders). I have practiced kata in fields & forests; over tree-roots, & under branches. I have practiced kata on the pitching decks of ships, & in the warren of passageways & decks below.

There's a place for kata beyond your sterile misconceptions of what clinically generates "speed & power".

FIRST COMMENT; SECOND SENTENCE: ACKNOWLEDGE?

One may possess a pretty little classic reverse punch that is near useless in the confines of a bus, or packed into a liberty boat in Hong Kong harbour facing a drunk Marine whom imagines himself one Jackie Chan.

It's not a perfect world, though some are better prepared - say for less than pristine footing - than others. I am as effective as anyone: I can breathe.

Kata teaches breathing.

Top
#257837 - 06/02/06 10:21 PM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
You keep referring to your "first comment, second sentence" as if i've accused you of ONLY using water training. This isn't the case. The point is your other training is irrelevant to the discussion we are having. Apparently you donít understand what the topic of this thread is. That topic would be the affects of underwater training on speed and power. I don't care what else your training entails, as it doesn't pertain to the topic at hand. Cord made two lengthy posts pointing out why underwater training does NOT aid in the increase of speed and power, you directly disagreed with his posts. Additionally you made the claim that he had presented no facts that support his stance on water training. You posted two of what you would like to believe are facts in a single post with no clarifying statements to define whether these "facts" were in support of each other or of separate issues. Not taking ANYTHING out of context but actually following the flow of the discussion your "facts" would lead others, as they did, to believe you were attributing your effectiveness to water training and still disagreeing with Cord and others about the lack of connection between water training and the increase of speed and power.

Quote:

Your opinion is not supported by facts, so far. Is that going to be a problem for you?




This statement to Cord was challenging in nature and you continued to dismiss his statements in your response to me. That is until you learned of Cords background and experience, then your attitude changes. Then suddenly your water training and effectiveness is limited to your breathing. If this is what you meant from the beginning then as i said, clarity and articulation would have ended this discussion long ago. Instead you choose to be vague and continue to argue, insult and make assumptions.

Quote:

I doubt anyone still reading this considers breathing, conditioning, stretching, even attitude as having no impact on "speed & power".




This is where you are failing to understand the nature of this topic. The question was never "what effects speed and power".

Original post from Peter586:
Quote:

hi does anyone know the benifits of underwater training i read on another site that it improves speed it seems logical but im not sure does anyone know if it improves speed or power




You might wonder why the forum rules state, "stay on topic".

Quote:

I suspect many have been brainwashed in the dogma that a classic reverse punch




Prior to making assumptions as to what my training is or has been like try a little research. You may not care what my background is but when you start making assumptions like this it only shows your ignorance. This intern is why i asked the questions of you that i did, so i can get an idea of where you are coming from. You seem to be a bit to paranoid for something as simple as Q&A.

Quote:

There's a place for kata beyond your sterile misconceptions of what clinically generates "speed & power".





Again, what do you know of my training of beliefs? Have you read any of my posts? Have you bothered to ask anything about any portion of my training? It wouldn't appear so, instead you choose to show your ignorance and make assumptions.

Quote:

One may possess a pretty little classic reverse punch that is near useless in the confines of a bus, or packed into a liberty boat in Hong Kong harbour facing a drunk Marine whom imagines himself one Jackie Chan.





I've been on those same liberty boats many times as well as many others, your not impressing anyone.

Quote:

It's not a perfect world, though some are better prepared - say for less than pristine footing - than others. I am as effective as anyone: I can breathe.





Trying to be a bit philosophical? How about instead of trying to play Miyagi you articulate your responses clearly and stay on topic. Like I said if I or anyone else misunderstood you itís your own fault.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257838 - 06/03/06 10:11 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
laff7773
I refer to my first comment, second sentence for two reasons:
1. Context, which you ignore. For example, you wanted to know how water training developed my bench press.
2. Your repeated accusation that I've changed my story. That's not "staying on topic", is it?

Cord, to his credit, changed his attitude in response #15856474 at 05/31/06 03:34 AM, thus demonstrating good will. I've no idea what his experience is. I'm sure he is as effective as anyone, & I've not assumed otherwise. I wonder if he's mortified by your sycophancy towards him?

I've not read your posts as, based on your comments here, you're a weasel. If you simply wish to trade insults, bring it to my blog.

Your wheel keeps spinning
Though your hampster is quite dead
Soft thumps behind glass.

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