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#257839 - 06/03/06 05:21 PM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
While i have been a bit harsh with you in terms of your inability to follow the course of the conversation, post clear articulate responses and for showing your ignorance by making obvious assumptions about my beliefs and training i have not resorted to calling you names. As you have.


Quote:

1. Context, which you ignore. For example, you wanted to know how water training developed my bench press.




I have taken nothing you said out of context. I read your posts as they were written and quoted them as such. You purposefully lead people to believe that your water training has affected you speed and power in a positive way. You have done this by the statements you made and your adamant disagreement with Cord and others (who were on topic). I have pointed out on more than one occasion that due to the statements you have made in your posts it appeared that you attributed underwater training to your effectiveness and not simply to your breathing. You either have done this without knowing and can't comprehend what is being pointed out and why your posts were perceived in the way they were or you have done it on purpose. The sentence you keep referring to is of no consequence in this discussion for a couple of reasons, the first being that it has nothing to do with the topic. The second being that you made it appear that you accredit underwater training to your "effectiveness" with the paragraph that directly followed.
Quote:

I enjoy working against the resistance of the water. Id rather not punch air. Timing my techniques in the surf is also entertaining. I find training in the water more effective as I find training in the water more enjoyable. It is training frequently that increases speed & power. I keep just my head above water.





There is nothing out of context here this is the entire paragraph. Reading this paragraph as it relates to the topic leads people to believe you attribute speed and power to underwater training. You re-enforce this belief with your very next post.
Quote:

Fact #1: I train in the water.
Fact #2: I am as effective as anyone.




As i have said numerous times, if your point has been misunderstood it's your fault. If that sentence was of so much importance and if water training isn't what you attribute to your performance why was you so adamant about disagreeing with people about the effects of water training? I only asked how water training helped you with your bench press because you mentioned it. Remember your two "facts"? "I train in water. I am as effective as anyone." Then you go on in a later post to state
Quote:

I am confident I can state that I am as effective as anyone, measured thus: I can bench press 340lbs fifteen times, tear a heavy bag free of its chains with a single punch (albeit not deliberately), and I can produce witnesses for this.



So my question was how does water training affect your ability to bench 340lbs and knock a heavy bag off its chain with a single punch.

Quote:

2. Your repeated accusation that I've changed my story. That's not "staying on topic", is it?





I've made that statement because if you follow your posts it clearly appears that you start to back peddle in your post #15856479. This is where you appear to go from adamantly arguing that underwater training does positively effect speed and power and change your story to only using it for kata and nothing else. Come on now you were in the Navy, perception is everything. I have only pointed out that you changed your story because it's difficult to have a discussion on a specific subject when the other party changes their story but then denies it. In case you haven't noticed the topic is now you, which is after all what you wanted. Look at me


Quote:

Cord, to his credit, changed his attitude in response #15856474 at 05/31/06 03:34 AM, thus demonstrating good will. I've no idea what his experience is. I'm sure he is as effective as anyone, & I've not assumed otherwise. I wonder if he's mortified by your sycophancy towards him?




Did he change his "attitude" or did you realize because of his background as a personal trainer that he knew better what he was talking about than you? I would think the latter as this is where your story looks to change. Don't take Cord's lack of participation in this discussion as any sort of agreement with you. Maybe you should shy away from making assumptions on what Cord thinks or feels about how i have referenced him. The things you don't know.

Quote:

I've not read your posts as, based on your comments here, you're a weasel. If you simply wish to trade insults, bring it to my blog.




As i said before, while i have made it a point to put your ignorance on display i have yet to resort to calling you names. I really don't see the point. I'm sad to see the Navy loose such a stellar example of maturity though. What would be the point of me going to your blog to discuss anything? Can't you hold a discussion here?

Like i said. If you have beliefs and wish to voice them at least have the conviction to stand by them. If those beliefs are shattered, have the maturity to admit it.

You could always pull another 2 year disappearing act.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257840 - 06/04/06 12:22 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
laff7773
Which part of "bring it to my blog" confused you?

We're done here.

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#257841 - 06/04/06 01:14 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Good bye then
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257842 - 06/04/06 04:16 PM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Allow me to "wade in".

Having skipped all the personal back-n-forth, I'd like to make the distinction between pool water & ocean water.

Pools are good for physical therapy & exercizes for elderly/disabled folk mainly due to resistance & weight suport.

Oceans are good for MA training the following reasons:
1) running on the sand (technically not in the water but as long as you're there...)

2) Kicking in knee-deep water (works on balance & bringing the knee up & out of the water as opposed to dragging your leg up)

3) Punching waves in waist-deep water (again, balance & timing to strike @ the precise moment)

4) Controling (not holding) your breathing

5) Rapid foot-work in knee-deep water (advancing, retreating, tai sabaki) while maintaining balance

6) Kumite/Yakusoku kumite in knee-deep water (training not to flinch even if your face is splashed)

7) Finally...if you begin just before sunrise, it tests your determinhation to train - especially when it's cold (internal/fighting-spirit)

(#8 is an optional reason...you don't need pee-breaks, just dribble down your leg...who's to know?)

owari

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#257843 - 06/04/06 06:34 PM Re: underwater training [Re: hedkikr]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


1) running on the sand (technically not in the water but as long as you're there...)




Running on sand is unquestionably harder than running on track/grass/road/insert stable surface here.
There are, however, downfalls to this (yes i know, here I go again).
running in soft sand causes your heel to sink further than normal as it strikes the ground- this extra 'give' in the ground very frequently leads to calve pulls/tears, and also achilles tendon problems.
The reason that running on sand is harder, is because much of the forward propulsion created by the leg is lost- transfered into the shifting sand. True your cardio system gets a killer workout compensating for this inneficiency, but for power generation, it is again (like water work) unsuitable because you are changing the biomechanics of the movement- your gate and stride length are different to what you would experience on solid land. Wind sprints, or even better, weighted sled sprints are safer, more efficient, and more effective than stumbling over sand dunes.

Quote:

2) Kicking in knee-deep water (works on balance & bringing the knee up & out of the water as opposed to dragging your leg up)




Weighted roman chair, squat, and varied lateral lunges will all be safer, more effective, and easier to measure in regards to your improvement.

Quote:

3) Punching waves in waist-deep water (again, balance & timing to strike @ the precise moment)




Sparring partners and floor to ceiling balls offer faster and less predictable targets.

Quote:

4) Controling (not holding) your breathing




Why is it you feel this is better learned stood waist deep in water than on land, infront of your computer for example?

Quote:

5) Rapid foot-work in knee-deep water (advancing, retreating, tai sabaki) while maintaining balance




Possibly. I am open to the possibility providing the water is no deeper than stated.

Quote:

6) Kumite/Yakusoku kumite in knee-deep water (training not to flinch even if your face is splashed)




I was a lifeguard for years, and I can tell you that flinching from water, and flinching when punched are completely different reflex responses to very different stimuli. Maybe if muggers put down their knives and pick up super-soakers I will buy into it

Quote:

7) Finally...if you begin just before sunrise, it tests your determinhation to train - especially when it's cold (internal/fighting-spirit)




You should reward your determination with effective training- why let all that enthusiasm and energy slip away in a stylised 80's MA movie montage?

unless, of course, you enjoy it. Which is what I said all along. There are millions of people lifting, punching, splashing, running, skipping and all other forms of exerrtion, with absolutely no idea of what they are doing or why. Providing they manage not to go so wrong as to injure themselves, the chances are they will gain some form of benefit from it.

I just believe in maximum efficiency and effectiveness, and that means staying on dry land.

Quote:

(#8 is an optional reason...you don't need pee-breaks, just dribble down your leg...who's to know?)




Cant argue that this is best done in water


Edited by Cord (06/04/06 06:39 PM)
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#257844 - 06/04/06 11:55 PM Re: underwater training [Re: Cord]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Cord
Good to see you back on track.

The meme that I am too "old school" to have kept abreast of research in physical training contains two fallacies: one an ad hominem, the other an argument from authority. That a bullet fired into water has its velocity reduced is a false analogy; as no one has asserted that water is not a denser medium than air.

What is needed is verification of credible, peer-reviewed, double-blind studies performed under various conditions by a broad spectrum of participants. I suspect that the documentation of performance measurements from a number of well-conditioned heavyweights (15% Body Fat or less) driving against a strong current (three knots or more) is very different from a few typically ill-conditioned martial-artists splashing about a fountain or pool.

Id like to see the documentation. Who researched this & how? Otherwise youve only passed an unsupported, unverifiable, & unfalsifiable hypothesis as a credible theory.

A link or two would do nicely, please.

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#257845 - 06/05/06 12:31 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
rideonlythelabel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
OOOHHH FANCY DEBATE TERMS.


I'm not impressed.


Quote:

Cord
Otherwise youve only passed an unsupported, unverifiable, & unfalsifiable hypothesis as a credible theory.





Pot calling the kettle black?
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#257846 - 06/05/06 01:10 AM Re: underwater training [Re: rideonlythelabel]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
rideonlythelabel
Are you here to verify or falsify one of my facts?

If you've a problem with me, take it to my blog.

Otherwise, we're done here. Acknowledged?

Top
#257847 - 06/05/06 01:47 AM Re: underwater training [Re: Stealthdozer]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Exactly what is it about Cord's position you disagree with? You have already stated that you only train kata underwater for it's effects on breathing, or are you now going to say you believe it effects speed and power as well? Are you going to provide anything to support your position? Are you at least going to state your position?

You don't dictate who discusses anything here. Obviously no one cares about your little blog as your self promotion has received little response. If you have a problem with people disagreeing with you here then say good bye.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#257848 - 06/05/06 01:58 AM Re: underwater training [Re: laf7773]
Stealthdozer Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/03
Posts: 224
Loc: Harpswell, Maine, US.
Edited for insults.


Do not do that again, dozer.

Joel


Edited by JoelM (06/05/06 10:38 AM)

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