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#257755 - 07/15/06 07:41 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: PaulHart]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
I am 100 % sure that my Kata has made me a much better combatant. I am also sure that the stuff people take for sparring today teaches poor technique, and bad basics. The Kata does not teach how to punch, but teaches instead what works to follow that punch and how the techniques can go together without giving the opponent an opening to work with. Most do not even teach Sabaki, there is so much lost in modern Karate.


I tend to agree on that one.

Paul, there is a website been posted on the maki wari discussion

http://www.jundokan.jp/english/album.htm

Dont suppose you would care to comment on what they are doing? Is it kata connected? Is this a kata being used as a drill?If so which kata?

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#257756 - 07/15/06 07:51 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Well said Ed


I agree with what you wrote on this thread earlier

There is a website been posted on the maki wari discussion

http://www.jundokan.jp/english/album.htm

Dont suppose you would care to comment on what they are doing? Is it kata connected? Is this a kata being used as a drill?If so which kata?

I am trying to work it out that is why i am asking everybody who has studied goju.

Thanks Andy

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#257757 - 07/18/06 07:06 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: ANDY44]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
The clip is showing applications of Sepai kata in the beginning (total kata in 2 person drill) and from seiunchin in the end.
Goju ryu karate.(probably older the Sakugawa suide

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#257758 - 07/18/06 11:25 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
cool video. had to watch it in slo-motion to try and answer your question. in regard to the first 30 seconds or so of the clip:

I'm just going by what I see in the video, reguardless if I agree with the interpretations or not:

1. double wrist grab release and strike to groin: Seiunchin.
2. head grab, knee strike: Saifa or I suppose Seisan.
3. arm lock, groin slap: Sepai. (then he begins a takedown also from Sepai, but doesn't follow thru)
4. parry clear and double fist strike: Sanseiru or Saifa (depending on how you look at it)...or heck, even Gekisai.
5. arm bar and strike to groin: opening of Seiunchin.
6. clear parry and right cross to chin/temple: variation of Sepai.
7. some Sanseiru or Tensho-like stuff, but it's not clear what he's doing. he's not following thru so the intent is hidden. also, spinning around isn't generally a good idea unless your throwing...maybe he's just not showing it. not sure.
8. pulls opponent down like something from kururunfa, but again he doesn't follow thru.
9. some arm grappling/takedown that could be from Seisan or Sepai or perhaps even Shisochin. but because of the follow-up (hammerfist to temple), this tells me he's perhaps intending the end of Sepai.

the next part (hitting the tree) shows some things which can be taken from any goju kata, but the vertical elbow strike is characteristic of Shisochin.

the next part (in the dojo), shows a wrist release and strike while sinking from the opening of Seiunchin. then he proceeds with follow up strikes, as in the kata.

he's sure got fast hands!

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#257759 - 07/25/06 06:36 PM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Thanks for the answer Ed, excellent work.






So the problem for me is in two parts: 1) That the kata these people, whom I have met, have chosen to "disengage" from may not be the kata or the type of kata that you talk about; and 2) That I have never seen a reversal of roles where a MMA type, or kickboxer, would change into a kata-centric training program to promote better fighting ability.



Hi butterfly

I boxed , did judo and took part in full contact kick boxing comp when I was younger. I also got 1st dan in shotokan trad karate.



http://www.jundokan.jp/english/album.htm

Ok This style of karate is my next learning curve. I have started to learn the katas, Then at some time will be the two man drills and all that goes with it. Coming from shotokan it is a different ball game.

I am not going to try to compare styles etc bit i think the vidio speaks for its self.
The guy on the vidio is the product of kata training etc and to me why katas exist.


Coming from a sport karate and boxing orientated back ground it is enougth to impress me to want to train in these methods.

I want what the guy on the vidio has and more
and it is kata based.


Thanks

Andy

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#257760 - 07/26/06 07:01 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: ANDY44]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I do not know where these 2-man kata partner drills come from but we train them too.

We train gekisai-dai ichi with partner, gekisai-dai ni, saifa. My trainer also knew for seiunchin and sepai but forgot it. He said they trained them end sixties with someone who returned from training in Japan.

I am surprised to see them in the curriculum of the Jundokan. I own the instructal CD's from Jundokan but there is no reference to these applications (up till now anyway, still new CD's are coming out from the Jundokan).

Can somebody confirm that Jundokan has these kata partner drills in their curriculum or any other goju sect ?

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#257761 - 07/26/06 09:11 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I don't think they are 'drills' ...but more an ad hoc string of applications or partial applications during a sort of demonstration. the partner isn't completely resistive and kind of 'reacts' as if being hit, even though he doesn't actually get hit. that tells me it's a demo or simulation. whether or not it's choreographed, I'm not sure, but maybe an outline is choroegraphed and then things filled in. it's still a very good demonstration since it shows a bit of meaning to how he's interpreting certain kata segments and the blending of them as opposed to static 1 attack - 1 response type drills. - but not sure if I'd clasify this as a drill - if it is a demo, it would explain why it doesn't appear in the curriculum. thats my guess.

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#257762 - 07/26/06 05:02 PM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: CVV]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi CVV

I think I see Eds point of view and the guy is strutting his stuff on the vidio, and ok to me it seems the other guy is some what passive and even looks some what worrried. but either way to me it shows why kata exists.

Just a small point.

If kata shows techniques and this guy is using different techniques from different katas then what do the other techniques in the katas hold?

The mind boggles.



Yoy say you have the CD's? what is on them and will they play on any european DVD player?

What impressed me was the fluid movement from strike to parry to grab to arm bar to finger break etc while keeping up a cover from attacking techniques,
I might assume this is the soft method from goju?


And thanks again ED

I have dissected the techniques he used on the vidio,
and can relate them to the katas which I will be learning.

Take some time but it will be worth it




Edited by ANDY44 (07/26/06 05:10 PM)

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#257763 - 09/15/06 06:20 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: PaulHart]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

First, Kata is not worthless.questionable. I will also admit that I believe that Itosu, and a few others changed a lot of the Kata to make it less dangerous and more fitting for a School program. If you practice these perhaps a little bit of knowledge would help you to extract the worthless from the worth while.




Hi Paul. I agree that some kata was changed in the way you described and they were made less complexed therefore losing the subtleties of effective fighting techniques.

Another thing I am finding/expereincing is that in some cases in this day and age the more the kata/bunkia are taken and adapted the more they lose there principles of being an effective fighting method.

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#257764 - 09/15/06 09:28 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: ANDY44]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
"Another thing I am finding/expereincing is that in some cases in this day and age the more the kata/bunkia are taken and adapted the more they lose there principles of being an effective fighting method."

We should be careful not to look at poor kata interpretation and resulting poor bunkai as a result of "excessive" interpretation. Poor interpretation results in poor bunkai. That, however, does not mean that interpreting kata is bad. It just means that those doing the interpretation need to be more diligent.

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