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#257735 - 05/27/06 11:40 PM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: PaulHart]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Paul,

I have known people stabbed in fights as well, and one BJJ player who was hurt fairly badly. But I think the same could be said about karate-ka who may have been injured in fights. This still doesn't answer the question about teaching and learning, just noting a reference for an injury, IMO.

I am not defending any particular art, just trying to get to the benefits of kata as opposed to the benefits of other training practices where the goals are the same. I have met good traditional players and good non-traditional players. I just question the efficacy of training more in kata than not.

But, this argument has been made a million times and I do appreciate your perspective, if nothing else...even if I may not agree with it.

-B

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#257736 - 05/27/06 11:42 PM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
And in fairness, there are many systems that utilize kata training that I have no interest in studying either.

We all have our world maps that drive us.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#257737 - 05/27/06 11:59 PM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'bunkai meet' ? I just told you kata doesn't work. lol

well...we could always just spar.

hehe

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#257738 - 05/28/06 01:13 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: butterfly]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
No butterfly you had excellant posts and stayed well within the boundaries. Noone could be insulted by what you said, infact if I were an advocate for non-kata training, i would say you were being to kind to kata users. All of you had very good post, and I wish to some day be able to exxpress my views in such and elegant manner.

My question is where were you guys a few months back when I was debating with just about everyone about the effectiveness of forms, I was even banned for expressing my opinions...

Ofcourse my expereince with forms comes from what people consider the most watered versions of MA. Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo and Kenpo. So when I expressed my views on the forms practice of these styles, all the okinawan stylist had a hissy fit. But you can't exaclty blame me for I was just the student, more the victom in this case, because of the systems lack of use of forms. For instance not one of these styles taught bunkai or application directly from forms. My self defense skills is text book jujutsu or hapkido.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#257739 - 05/28/06 01:18 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: butterfly]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
Yes, you are right. It all comes down to opinion. Knowledge is the best way to base opinion but where we place the knowledge is a matter of perception as well. Maybe one day you will train with someone who truly "knows" Kata. Then again, maybe I will switch to BJJ, stranger things have happened. I do not think that there are rights or wrongs here, just a choice we all make on what path to follow.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#257740 - 05/28/06 01:57 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
anyone want to start a thread saying how hojo undo is better than modern weightlifting ? lol

no takers? ok...I will.

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#257741 - 05/28/06 06:23 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
one could argue that it is perhaps more suited to the study/application of karate, from as shorin ryu perspective anyway.

But with my sensible head a combination of the 2 is proberly most usefull.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#257742 - 05/28/06 10:59 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
had another thought about any method of fighting and effectiveness which is the notion: a fighting art is 100% effective when you don't have to call upon it.

so, if finding peace thru learning defense (or even the illusion of learning defense) is the goal...then I'd say as a whole, the pursuit of either kata or non-kata styles have both been effective.

It's a cop-out answer, I admit. but wouldn't it be more productive to promote the pursuit of non-fighting to the public as the number one priority in civil order?

On top of that, look at anything that changed from family/home-style to mass-production. Even 'McDonalds' itself at one time used to be 1 cook on a grill working his magic. now what is it? 'modern'? 'new and improved'? Is it concerned more with giving people what they need or giving people what they want? 'Have it your way'.

but everyone already understands how the superficial commercial world works. what you want to know, Brad, is let's take those 1% of kata practioners and match them side by side with equally in-depth trained non-kata artists.

I think it would be a short match. A few minutes of circling, a blurry 2 second clash, and one if not both falling. Now do that 1000 times to eliminate luck's bell curve, and what would it prove or even change?

here is something I still can't work out what it means, and a combination of honesty and critical thinking (or at least trying towards it) leads me to this kind question:
The only real test we have in modern society is money incentive. surely everyone can agree that in every Art, no matter the quality of values or morals, there are bound to be people looking for ways to make money. Who are the rich kata-centric promoters and what are they doing in order to make that money? and who are the rich non-kata guys and what do they do?
question: Why hasn't there been an in-depth kata-trained artist who turned greedy and is now making millions on Pay-per-view live from Vegas? One Dim-Mak or even pressure point guy would clean-up and save alot of time by not having to scrape a few thousand here and there writing books.

lol. sorry but doesn't that reason?

Now the retaliation strike:

on the flip side, maybe there hasn't been a PPV event as such for a number of reasons:

* where would the shareholders of UFC,BJJ,MMA stock be if a kata guy won consistantly?

* would it make money if fights only lasted a few seconds? I remember feeling completely ripped off paying $40 to my cable company to watch a taison fight once. The one where the slightly out of shape guy from Massachusetts took him on (forgot the guys name) and took a dive in the first or second round. never paid to watch any fight since then.

* How do you really test self-defense in a ring? are self-defense skills 100% transferrable in that venue even though the strategies are completely different? I don't see any self-defense based non-kata Japanese or Chinese styles in the ring making money other than perhaps bits and peices of principles extracted from them.


just some thoughts to stir the pot.

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#257743 - 05/28/06 01:16 PM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

had another thought about any method of fighting and effectiveness which is the notion: a fighting art is 100% effective when you don't have to call upon it.

so, if finding peace thru learning defense (or even the illusion of learning defense) is the goal...then I'd say as a whole, the pursuit of either kata or non-kata styles have both been effective.

It's a cop-out answer, I admit. but wouldn't it be more productive to promote the pursuit of non-fighting to the public as the number one priority in civil order?





Ed, here I really agree. The young, stupid and testosterone driven are usually the ones who want to "show" what they know.

The reality of anyone who has trained for any length of time is that it is a dangerous gamble to get into a "real" fight. The awareness comes from knowing people injured in these altercations who, in hindsight, would not have crossed that line; and also in noting through the regular course of your MA travels that there are some astoundingly good players out there who don't have the appearance of what they can dish out. Losing in practice is learning in life.

Thus the irritation I have of all the posts considering punching some guy after school for a slighted glance in the cafeteria at a high school.

If one recognizes that fighting is a last ditch effort for saving your or someone else's hide, then you got most of the answer right there. Plus, on some level that all martial artists can appreciate, it is fun.

Have a good day guys!

-B

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#257744 - 06/01/06 08:10 AM Re: Karate, Kata and real Self-Defense. [Re: butterfly]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Fellow Karateka

Its really wierd, Since I have taken up martial arts, especially my main style of Ashihara Karate, complemented with Krav Maga, Atemi Jujitsu and for Tradition Wado(although only started 5 mins ago) I feel that I don't need to fight, I find that I don't get 'eyed' like I use to, I come from and estate where they'd stab you quicker than shake your hand and walk off without anyone knowing the wiser.

Is it the Persona that we Karateka and other martial artists portray, Is this the reason why we never get attacked, as we don't 'look' like victims.

So even just the confidence from constant practice is enough to be a self defence

my respect

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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