FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 64 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
osibolyxu, SamasTactical, Mustafa, kritesh, AlfonsoGrey37
23185 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
kickbutt 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
History of Tae Kwon Do
by
05/07/05 10:39 PM
Recent Posts
History of Tae Kwon Do
by kickbutt
09/07/18 06:28 AM
Forum Stats
23185 Members
36 Forums
35694 Topics
432749 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#256581 - 05/22/06 09:14 PM Rank in the Way of the Sword
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Just out of curiosity I wanted to post this. I am a Karateka, first and foremost. I also have some experience with Jujutsu and my Sensei was an elderly Japanese gentleman named Tetsu (Ken) Kimura who attended the Toyama Officers School where the famed Toyama Ryu comes from. He also studied other sword arts that included Itto Ryu. Thing is, he never claimed to have a rank, and in his teaching me the sword arts, I never received a rank. It was more about transmission of knowledge among both him and my Karate instructor. I have been offered rank by other Instructors, but do not feel it correct to accept rank from someone who I did not train under. Why is rank in the sword arts important? I have never had a problem teaching the arts I do to anyone and have even gotten away from rank in Karate. Is rank really that important?

I am a pretty good guy with a Katana, not great, but after many years of training, I do okay.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#256582 - 05/22/06 09:46 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Rank is a simple matter of indicating a very general level of experience and expertise. Various forms of rank go back several hundred years in Japan. Rank only holds meaning to members of the organization which issued the rank, and to certain individuals outside the issuing organization which also have a good understanding of the ranking criteria. Rank also makes for a handy fund raising tool. You can train hard and long in Toyama Ryu, but without rank other members of the ryu may not take you particularly seriously. It is not meaningless tripe, but neither is it the end all be all of training, nor is it necessarily a good indication of skill.

If your organization is happy without rank. Good for you.

BTW. Toyama Ryu does issue rank. I'm sure Itto Ryu does as well although I have no idea how it's ranking system works. If your instructor issued no rank in either system, it might be as simple as him not being authorized to do so.


Edited by Charles Mahan (05/22/06 09:48 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

Top
#256583 - 05/22/06 11:03 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: Charles Mahan]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
No organization, just me. I practise what I have learned, daily. I do not claim any rank, as I have never been given any. Honestly, when asked what style of sword art I do, I claim that I do only what Sensei taught me. That way I avoid the rank pitfall. I see your point about being in the group, but that would be about it. I have met a few who are very high ranked who know little, and a few who have no rank who know so much. Sensei trained in Toyama Ryu and some of what we do looks like Toyama Ryu, but I wouldn't call it Toyama Ryu. I have never named it, and would have a problem if I had to.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#256584 - 05/23/06 11:35 AM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
I'm happy with the way fencing does it. You earn a rank determined by who you beat at the tournaments. It gives you an idea about what you will be facing and gives a reward for winning without putting too much emphasis on earning ranks or belts.

The full rating system is shown here (click on "Event Ratings" on the menu to the left, sorry about the lack of a direct link). This system prevents a large number of problems that seem to confront traditional MA rankings (ie: why hasn't my child advanced yet? Answer: Because he hasn't won). Also, it helps keep up interest in doing well, as improving your rank always seems to be just around the corner (you only need to win two direct elimination bouts to get your E, yet it can take years to do so).

Unfortunately, the system does make winning a priority over self improvement or enjoying the past-time. It also rewards hard to block techniques that take advantage of the rules (ie: the flick). It also tends to have a degree of inflation, as more ranked people means higher ranked tournaments, but you can't complain that people are awarding ranks unearned.
_________________________
Fencing Club at UH

Top
#256585 - 05/23/06 12:52 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5846
Loc: USA
Paul

Overall rank is of little importance in koryu arts.

Your pretty much a student, an advanced student or the guy/gal teaching the class.

What counts in a teacher is training time and the ability to teach the information they have.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#256586 - 05/23/06 02:35 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

Why is rank in the sword arts important? I have never had a problem teaching the arts I do to anyone and have even gotten away from rank in Karate. Is rank really that important?



Nope! As others have said, rank isn't really important at all. However, certification does come into play when involved in the Japanese sword schools. What you are teaching may be just fine, and there is no problem with it as you presented it (other than calling yourself sensei!). However, if you wanted to state that you were teaching Toyama ryu, at least one of the existing Toyama ryu groups would probably get upset that you were teaching Toyama ryu without any sort of official licensure. This is where rank within the Japanese sword arts becomes important. If I started declaring that I taught Shin Shin Sekiguchi ryu battojutsu when I didn't have proper authorization to do so, I could well end up being a tameshigiri target. However, if I said that I taught an unnamed collection of techniques that my sensei taught me, then the Sekiguchi ryu would not care in the least. The koryu have been handed down for centuries, and they tend to get fairly upset about the possibility that unqualified people may be changing them.
_________________________
Paul

Top
#256587 - 05/23/06 02:58 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: pgsmith]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
The "Sensei" does not come from the sword arts, but comes from Karate. I have posted on this forum a number of times in the other areas. I was offered rank from one of the Toyama Ryu Federations. He explained that I could then teach "his" style. I found it humorous and refused. He and I are still friends but I do not do "his" style. It is kind of funny that you mention being a Tameshigiri Target. I have once had a challenge similar to that thrown at me by a gentleman who did not like my opinions in Martial Arts. I removed my Katana from it's bag and smiling said, whenever you wish, Sir. I like to think that I have a pretty good spirit about me, and that if I were to die tomorrow, I would die as I have lived, with honor and bravery. Most of the guys who are truly of high rank are at least familiar to me, and some are very good friends, so in that area I have little problem. After 33 years in the Martial Arts, you get that kind of relationship with some. I even had one Sensei tell me after a conversation and transmission of technique that my fellow Karateka would be surprised to know I have that kind of experiance. I replied that in Okinawa there were Samurai to, they were called Peichin.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#256588 - 05/23/06 03:42 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
Quote:

The "Sensei" does not come from the sword arts, but comes from Karate.



Wasn't referring to the sword arts. You made it pretty clear what you were teaching and talking about and, as I said, it shouldn't give anyone any problems. It was just a little jab about the fact that in the Japanese arts, it is considered a very large breach of ettiquette to refer to yourself as sensei. It is a word that is only used in conjunction with someone else. I do understand that karateka use it differently.

Pretty strange about the Toyama ryu thing. As far as I was aware, all three Toyama ryu branches require authorization from the higher-ups in Japan in order to confer rank. Never heard of one that could grant rank on their own.
_________________________
Paul

Top
#256589 - 05/23/06 05:44 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: pgsmith]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
I am unsure about that, the Instructor told me that he would be happy to give me rank in the system. He may have had to get it approved, but I am unsure. It was just a comment he made, and probably knew I would never take him up on it. Yes, we refer to Sensei as teachers, much as a Japanese school teacher would tell you he or she is a Sensei. I grew up at Yakota and in Nagoya so the Japanese ways are some what familiar to me. I know that in the way of the sword they follow a more stringent adherence to rules of etiquette. This is not the same in Karate, and I only teach my sword skills to members of my Karate group. Not many of those actually get to train with me in the sword arts, I keep it very low key. I am not very advanced myself, just know a bit about history and what Kimura Sensei taught. Funny thing, Hanashiro Sensei, who was my Karate Instructor, also did a sword art. It is not very usual for that in Japan. I am familiar with Karate's history enough to know that Anko Asato and Sokon Matsumura were both excellent swordsman.

Kimura sensei was probably the best swordsman I have ever seen, along with skills with the spear, naginata, kusarigama and in archery. I only witnessed him do archery from horseback one time, but find it amazing anyone could hit a target so small while riding as hard as they do. Of all the arts, this would be the one I am impressed with the most.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

Top
#256590 - 05/23/06 09:12 PM Re: Rank in the Way of the Sword [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Paul is correct. It is a fundamental rule of Japanese that you do not refer to yourself with an honorific. You would not say "Boku no namae wa Hart-sensei" anymore than you would say "Boku no namae wa Hart-san". You might tell someone that you are an Iaido sensei as a way of describing your position within a group. But you would not use the honorific in the way you are using it with your screen name. Pretty sure we've talked about this before. That was Paul's point.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  Charles Mahan, Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga