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#256444 - 06/26/06 11:36 PM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: rafikEz]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
I agree that the videos on that site are "interesting" to say the least.

I have no idea of the instructors qualifications, bu why do the techniques so slow? Or is it the connection? I doubt it because I have seen in on a couple diffeent CPU"s and it's always slow.
_________________________
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#256445 - 07/27/06 07:39 AM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: Dedicated1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Yeah; they're interesting if you call watching video clips of "demonstrations" interesting.

I saw the first seconds of the first video and couldn't watch anymore. That's a nice job of "role playing" and demonstration. Let me ask why you rarely see KM clips of people who are actually sparring? (Perhaps that video clip is included in those above. I'll check them all out later when I have time).

I'm just fascinated by how every Krav Maga video clip that I ever see is always a "demonstration". In fact, that's all I usually see from ANY "street combat" martial art. That's what many apparently believe is "training". Anyone know what that may be the case here with Krav Maga?



Dedicated1 wrote
Quote:


As for arm bars, a friend of mine broke a guys arm while bouncing at a bar. The guy still fought back due to the drugs and beer in his system. Arm bars do not finish attacks. Beating your attacker unconscious does.





Lets be careful here.

I know of instances where they DID finish an attack. I also know of instances where beating a guy senseless did NOT finish the fight. He would go out, then come back; go out, then come back, etc., etc.

Both of those situations were as told to me by LEOs within special units. You can never truly know beforehand what will be required to “finish” an individual. (Personally I’d break the shoulder before I would the arm).

I make that point to show the utility of causing structural damage. There is a reason why you learn joint locking and submission. (And that isn't to get the "tap out". )

There are two primary ways of "ending" a fight: 1. Causing unconsciousness (by way of head trauma or a choke) and 2. Structural damage (joint locking and breaking)

My point is that beating a person unconscious requires a certain attributes. If you’re smaller, you’re not as likely to beat a person unconscious that outweighs you and is taller/stronger, etc. A smaller person CAN however use leverage and technique. Lets not forget why jiu-jitsu has been around for thousands of years. Take the notion of the UFC out of the picture and try to think of the underlying art. It works very well and has been proven time and time again. It’s the INDIVIDUAL that we have to educate and make street savvy.



-John

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#256446 - 07/27/06 10:19 AM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: JKogas]
stvb7 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
I think one answer to your question about why you don't see people sparring in Krav in more videos is probably because sparring isn't what Krav is about. It isn't about two people standing toe to toe exchanging blows for a long period of time. Many of the defeneses are reactions to an attack which set the defender up to quickly attack and then get away.

People do spar in Krav, but perhaps they just don't bother to make vidoes of it. I am a beginner at sparring and I suck at it, so I'm sure not going to post a video. If you think about it, other MA's have tournaments, so of course you will get a lot of footage of sparring. Krav doesn't have tournaments, so you'll have less footage.

Quote: "I'm just fascinated by how every Krav Maga video clip that I ever see is always a "demonstration". In fact, that's all I usually see from ANY "street combat" martial art. That's what many apparently believe is "training". Anyone know what that may be the case here with Krav Maga?"

I'm not really sure what it is that you are looking for from Krav. Real videos where Krav practicioners start fights "on the street" to prove how effective the techniques are? Many of the Krav attacks would be very detrimental to your training partner...are you saying that you'd like to see someone actually fishhook their partner and rip their cheek open to make the training more authentic? I assume you don't mean that. Sometimes I bite my training partner if I can reach when grappling. How hard should I bite to make it more realistic? Should I keep biting until they bleed? (yuck, no way!)

I do agree that the IKMF videos are very staged, and I know that in Krav training you start with that kind of attack and speed in order to learn the proper responses and body movements. Once you are able to execute the manuever, the attackers are allowed to attack you in unpredictable ways. "There are no rules" is a quote you hear from Krav instructors.

Since I haven't done other MA's I have no idea what others would consider realistic training. I am also only at the yellow belt level (about a year into Krav), so I'm still learning the basics. I can say that we train with resistance, and that the amount of resistance is a function of how good you are.

I can understand your question though because I have a friend who is a second degree black belt in Ju Jitsu and when we talk about techniques my 140lb female friend is completely confident in her ability to handle ANY sized guy, and I wonder how realistic her training is. I think that some of the big guys I train with would crush her, despite her technique. Her art seems to ignore strikes (at least her hands don't end up anywhere near her face for defense) and it is all about submissions. But I've never attended her dojo or seen her train, so I really can't judge her years of training from just a few techniques she's shown me.

Another note: The IKMF techniques on the video (law enforcement) are very different than the US Krav techniques for civilians.

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#256447 - 07/27/06 06:12 PM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: stvb7]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I think one answer to your question about why you don't see people sparring in Krav in more videos is probably because sparring isn't what Krav is about. It isn't about two people standing toe to toe exchanging blows for a long period of time. Many of the defeneses are reactions to an attack which set the defender up to quickly attack and then get away.





Point made. Now counterpoint:

Bad guys are going to resist our efforts on the street right? Of course they are, especially if they initiated contact. Now, how much do you think they’re going to resist? 5%? 20%? Maybe they’ll resist 75%? Actually they will resist us by 100 percent of their efforts. The good one’s will anyway and those are the only people we should really be concerned about.

My point is, if the BAD guys are going to resist us by 100 percent, then our training partners probably should too, in order to prepare us for the realities of physical conflict.

That is sparring. Sparring doesn’t have to be limited to endless rounds of tag. You can allow both sides to have objectives -- like to knocking each other out, which would be just like a real street fight. You can have OTHER objectives as well. However, the objectives should be equally sought for by both training partners and, efforts should be made to RESIST and DEFEND against the efforts of our training partners. Just like what would happen in a real fight. And that my friend, is sparring.

Cooperating with your partners to make sure that their technique is “effective” isn’t realistic. Bad guys don’t cooperate. Neither should your partners when you train. That said, sparring can be done progressively, but it should be done. Otherwise you’re only “role playing”. And again, bad guys won’t play along. They have their own objectives – which AREN’T making you “look good” when you execute your technique.


Quote:


People do spar in Krav, but perhaps they just don't bother to make vidoes of it. I am a beginner at sparring and I suck at it, so I'm sure not going to post a video. If you think about it, other MA's have tournaments, so of course you will get a lot of footage of sparring. Krav doesn't have tournaments, so you'll have less footage.





Point made. MY point was, that now in the year 2006, I’ve yet to see KM guys and Systema guys produce a video that shows sparring. Everything has been demonstration work. Which is fine. It does look really “pretty” and fancy. I just want to see uncooperative training.


Quote:


I'm not really sure what it is that you are looking for from Krav. Real videos where Krav practicioners start fights "on the street" to prove how effective the techniques are?




No, just partners who resist the efforts of their training partners. Nothing more and nothing less.


Quote:


Many of the Krav attacks would be very detrimental to your training partner...are you saying that you'd like to see someone actually fishhook their partner and rip their cheek open to make the training more authentic?




What I’m saying is, if you can’t actually pull it off in practice, you can’t know that you’ll pull it off in application. You “play like you practice” in other words. If you’re just “pretending” in training, how do you know you won’t “pretend” in a real fight?


Quote:


I assume you don't mean that. Sometimes I bite my training partner if I can reach when grappling. How hard should I bite to make it more realistic? Should I keep biting until they bleed? (yuck, no way!)




Enough to know how your partner is going to react FOR REAL. If you pretend to bite, does he pretend to REACT? See my point? That’s called “role playing”. It isn’t good for developing functional skill.



Thanks and good luck!



-John

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#256448 - 07/28/06 09:06 AM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: JKogas]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
Do you know any one who takes Krav Maga? Have you ever taken a class? You cannot base the systems worth just on demo videos. You guys are killing me with this stuff, every one bashes demo videos because they look fake or the don't seem real. It's a demo, of course it's not real. The victim knows how he might be attacked, and the attacker knows how the victims going to defend. What martial art or self defense program does your idea of real sparring? Most people have to get up and go to work the next day, they usually don't want to get a black eye or broken arm the night before. In sparring class everything goes, groin kicks, punches and kicks to the face and head, take downs, and fighting on the ground. We train as close to reality as possible with out injury. If you get hurt in class, how can you defend on the street? When you have learned the techniques, you get attacked harder and faster, with resistence. Trust me, it looks nothing like the demo videos!


Edited by Dedicated1 (07/28/06 09:08 AM)
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#256449 - 07/28/06 09:33 AM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: Dedicated1]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I agree. The keyword is "demo". I can't recall any demo vid that displays a real attack situation. Let's face it, how can they when noone knows how/when they will be attacked on the streets. We train as hard and real as we can, like Dedicated said, and try not to get hurt.

In my mind a demo is just displaying the technique and how they can be applied. I would not base any art, system off of a demo, because they are for show. imo.

And happy friday everyeone.
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#256450 - 07/28/06 11:55 AM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: Plantman]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381

Quote:

http://www.kravmagaexams.pro.br/ingles/index.htm




Um...seriously????

To be perfectly honest, I dont know why anyone would post a video unless they felt it was representative of their style.

Especially posting it here, where many of the viewers have a martial arts background.

To be honest, none of these videos were anywhere close to impressive. Staged attacks, lack of dynamic attackers...

Just seems to be a re-hash of so many other styles of self defense.

Dont take this the wrong way. I am not bashing Krav. I have never taken a class nor do I know anyone who has.

What I am doing is bashing these videos. Almost to a one, they are unimpressive and I think do a disservice to anyone who represents the style well.

Galen
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#256451 - 07/28/06 03:30 PM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: JKogas]
stvb7 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
Quote: "Bad guys are going to resist our efforts on the street right? ...Actually they will resist us by 100 percent of their efforts. The good one’s will anyway and those are the only people we should really be concerned about."

I agree with you that our partners should EVENTUALLY be resisting us 100%. But I don't think that they should be doing that right off the bat. I don't think that people who are relatively new to any self defense method should always be going 100%. It is counterproductive and demoralizing. First you learn how to do the technique, then you increase the resistence of your opponents.


Quote:"Sparring doesn’t have to be limited to endless rounds of tag. You can allow both sides to have objectives -- like to knocking each other out, which would be just like a real street fight. You can have OTHER objectives as well. However, the objectives should be equally sought for by both training partners and, efforts should be made to RESIST and DEFEND against the efforts of our training partners. Just like what would happen in a real fight. And that my friend, is sparring."

I agree that what you are saying would be the closest thing to a real fight. But I have to admit that I am no where near ready to have that happen. I'm still afraid to get punched in the head, and when I get hit too hard in the head it [censored] me off...A LOT. I know that our training is meant to bring us up to a level where we can go hard, but that takes time, regardless of what MA you do. I don't know if I'm ever going to want to go against someone larger than me and say "ok, we'll go until one of us is unconsious!" I seriously doubt it. What's the point of taking self defense if I've been beaten to a pulp worse in class than if I were attacked on the street? I think that there has to be a middle ground in this. I watch MMA fights, and I'm sure that they don't go 100% every day every practice "fight until someone gets knocked out". They'd be too injured to fight if they did that.

Quote: "Cooperating with your partners to make sure that their technique is “effective” isn’t realistic. Bad guys don’t cooperate. Neither should your partners when you train. "

I partially agree with this statement, as long as it is tempered by "sparring can be done progressively". When we learn a new technique it doesn't just take me 3 tries to get it perfect. In Krav you and your partner communicate about the level of resistence you want. Some people take a lot longer to get the idea, so they have to have a partner that is not resisting at first. Eventually you and your partner should be going full speed. Like any other martial system, Krav is only as advanced as the practicioner.


Quote: "Point made. MY point was, that now in the year 2006, I’ve yet to see KM guys and Systema guys produce a video that shows sparring. Everything has been demonstration work. Which is fine. It does look really “pretty” and fancy. I just want to see uncooperative training."

Can't help you there. But I do agree that the videos posted were not very impressive.

Quote: "What I’m saying is, if you can’t actually pull it off in practice, you can’t know that you’ll pull it off in application. You “play like you practice” in other words. If you’re just “pretending” in training, how do you know you won’t “pretend” in a real fight?"

I would take the other side of this and say that just because I haven't done the full manuever in practice (ex: I've never raked someones eyes out with my nails, I aim for the forehead w/out nails) doesn't mean that I won't be capable of doing it in a real situation. I'm sure some will be able to and some people won't. When soldiers go off to war, they've only ever shot at targets...does that mean that they won't be able to shoot at a real person? For some yes, for some no. But I am absolutely unwilling to be the dumb training partner who gets their eyes scratched out so that someone can practice doing it.

Quote: "Enough to know how your partner is going to react FOR REAL. If you pretend to bite, does he pretend to REACT? See my point? That’s called “role playing”. It isn’t good for developing functional skill."

We are encouraged to do the attacks for real-- and to do them until the opponent lets go b/c it hurts too much. But I admit that I'm not getting someone's nasty, potentially diseased blood in my mouth unless it is a dire situation. And maybe you'd wonder if I'd actually be able to bite hard since I don't practice ripping hunks out of my friends, but I'm confident in my ability to bite. Now, whether it will get my opponent off me or not is another question.

So what it really comes down to is this, how hard do the individuals train? Just because there isn't a video on the web doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of Krav people who train just as hard and seriously as you do. From what I've heard, the black belt test involves live knife defenses and something like 50% of the people fail due to injuries (stab wounds or broken bones). That sounds pretty hard core (CRAZY) to me, but those people are in the upper levels and they like that stuff.

Baby steps. Everyone proceeds at their own pace.

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#256452 - 07/28/06 05:52 PM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: stvb7]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Dedicated1 wrote
Quote:

Do you know any one who takes Krav Maga? Have you ever taken a class? You cannot base the systems worth just on demo videos.




In fact I do. There are two training centers nearby and I in fact already checked them out. I have NOT checked out the more advanced sessions however and I freely admit that.


Quote:


You guys are killing me with this stuff, every one bashes demo videos because they look fake or the don't seem real. It's a demo, of course it's not real. The victim knows how he might be attacked, and the attacker knows how the victims going to defend.





I was just asking where the videos of them actually sparring were. Don’t go getting all “irregular” because of a legitimate curiosity


Quote:


What martial art or self defense program does your idea of real sparring? Most people have to get up and go to work the next day, they usually don't want to get a black eye or broken arm the night before. In sparring class everything goes, groin kicks, punches and kicks to the face and head, take downs, and fighting on the ground.





Why would you think that sparring has to be taken to the extreme? I’ve not seen ANY coming from a KM source! Don’t want a black eye? Wear headgear and other suitable protection. Ever heard of those things before? WTF is up with the “black eyes and broken arms”? Who does that?


Quote:


e train as close to reality as possible with out injury. If you get hurt in class, how can you defend on the street? When you have learned the techniques, you get attacked harder and faster, with resistance. Trust me, it looks nothing like the demo videos!





I not saying otherwise. For the last time, I’m ONLY wondering where the videos of them sparring are.


stvb7 wrote
Quote:

I agree with you that our partners should EVENTUALLY be resisting us 100%. But I don't think that they should be doing that right off the bat. I don't think that people who are relatively new to any self defense method should always be going 100%. It is counterproductive and demoralizing. First you learn how to do the technique, then you increase the resistance of your opponents.





Of course you’re not going to go one hundred percent. PRO fighters don’t always go at one hundred percent. You have to use progressive resistance and variable intensity. That is the intelligent way to train and we use the same methods. It’s just a smart method of training and is beyond question.


Quote:


I agree that what you are saying would be the closest thing to a real fight. But I have to admit that I am no where near ready to have that happen. I'm still afraid to get punched in the head, and when I get hit too hard in the head it [censored] me off...A LOT. I know that our training is meant to bring us up to a level where we can go hard, but that takes time, regardless of what MA you do. I don't know if I'm ever going to want to go against someone larger than me and say "ok, we'll go until one of us is unconsious!" I seriously doubt it. What's the point of taking self defense if I've been beaten to a pulp worse in class than if I were attacked on the street? I think that there has to be a middle ground in this. I watch MMA fights, and I'm sure that they don't go 100% every day every practice "fight until someone gets knocked out". They'd be too injured to fight if they did that.





Lets clear this up and say that I am not advocating that people train like this. All I was saying is that the training had better look different than every last one of the KM video clips that I have seen. That’s all.


Quote:


I partially agree with this statement, as long as it is tempered by "sparring can be done progressively". When we learn a new technique it doesn't just take me 3 tries to get it perfect. In Krav you and your partner communicate about the level of resistance you want. Some people take a lot longer to get the idea, so they have to have a partner that is not resisting at first. Eventually you and your partner should be going full speed. Like any other martial system, Krav is only as advanced as the practitioner.





That is true with ANYTHING. Everyone should train at the level and pace that they are comfortable with. I have never stated otherwise.


Quote:


Can't help you there. But I do agree that the videos posted were not very impressive.




MY point exactly. I’ve not been impressed with anything that I’ve seen yet. I mean, sure, it “looks” pretty and “appears” like its’ effective against that guy who was completely playing along….ya know what I mean? I wasn’t saying anything about the art itself because honestly, I don’t know a great deal about it other than what I have seen so far (which isn’t a great deal). People will have to PARDON me for my natural skepticism and curiosity.


Quote:


I would take the other side of this and say that just because I haven't done the full manuever in practice (ex: I've never raked someones eyes out with my nails, I aim for the forehead w/out nails) doesn't mean that I won't be capable of doing it in a real situation.




No question. But that doesn’t mean that you WILL either. You may “think” that you can or will. Just like Mike Tyson once said, “Everyone has a plan, until they get hit”. That’s one of the FEW things that he ever said that made much sense -- but there’s no getting around the truth of that statement. The other guy always has a little bit to say about our plans in a fight.


Quote:


We are encouraged to do the attacks for real-- and to do them until the opponent lets go b/c it hurts too much. But I admit that I'm not getting someone's nasty, potentially diseased blood in my mouth unless it is a dire situation. And maybe you'd wonder if I'd actually be able to bite hard since I don't practice ripping hunks out of my friends, but I'm confident in my ability to bite. Now, whether it will get my opponent off me or not is another question.

So what it really comes down to is this, how hard do the individuals train? Just because there isn't a video on the web doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of Krav people who train just as hard and seriously as you do. From what I've heard, the black belt test involves live knife defenses and something like 50% of the people fail due to injuries (stab wounds or broken bones). That sounds pretty hard core (CRAZY) to me, but those people are in the upper levels and they like that stuff.

Baby steps. Everyone proceeds at their own pace.





I have always agreed that everyone progresses at their own pace. I also agree with just about everything you’ve written.

I just want to see Kravists spar and wrestle around, resisting each other. MMA style training, in other words.


-John

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#256453 - 07/28/06 09:39 PM Re: Krav Maga Videos..... [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
JK, I don't know about oyu or anyone else on here, but I know that I'll bite, scratch anbd rip a person apart if I need to in a fight whether I've trained for that or not. Just because certain techniques can't be practiced full power or completely "alive" doesn't mean they should be forgotten. If a technique is effective then use it, even biting. I'm sure Bruce Lee probably didn't practice biting full force yet he recommended be prepared to do it if need be.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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