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#256361 - 05/22/06 02:44 AM You vs. a weapon
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I noticed some articles on the home page regarding weapon disarms,but not many of us train them enough to actually be effective,I know I don't.
What would be your best advice to someone who has a weapon pulled on them? It could be a gun or knife at any range.
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#256362 - 05/22/06 07:00 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Guns?? I don't even TRAIN gun disarms. I just don't see the point in doing so. For stuff like that to work, a person would almost have to be very close and stick the barrel of the gun right against you. Giving up your wallet or car would be preferable to being shot so, those would be my first options.

Knife is another story, and I still don't train that very much. When we do knife training, we use a program called "Red Zone" from Jerry Wetzel. It's good stuff and worth looking into.

Generally you have two basic scenarios with a knife; you either see it being brandished or your cut and THEN realize you've been hit with a knife. If you can see it before you're attacked, it's a simple matter of RUNNING AWAY......

If you've already been cut, it's a matter of controlling the blade arm while headbutting or throwing a knee and then running away. In training you'll often notice the knife coming free, but it's usually not by any sort of technical disarm. We see that as a bonus. It isn't something we would actively work for in a street encounter usually.




-John

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#256363 - 05/22/06 08:18 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
There are arts that do quite a bit of knife work generally (amongest other things) The best I have classes I went to for knife training were Silat, Kali, and Japanese Ju Jutsu.

Ju Jutsu Sensei told me if you are going to tackle someone with a knife, you almost certainly are going to get cut, and you have to be prepared for that. He told us to always take out their holding arm, anyway we could.

Jkogas had some good advice i.e. RUN! It is the best thing to do.

A guy in my class asked what was the best martial art for defending against a knife. My Ju jutsu sensei told him to save his money and buy a stab vest lol
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#256364 - 05/22/06 08:43 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
This is all just conjecture on my part, but I do have a lot of handgun experience.

To me, there is no good reason to fight a weapon if you don't have to (or fight ever - if you don't have to). So, my advise would be to quickly decide what the other person's intent is. As John said, if it is all about your wallet or money or car - let them have it. That is NOT the time to try out your stuff. Ramping up this situation to the conbat level is not smart. You have lot's to lose and little to gain.

On the other hand, if you have somehow gotten into a situatiuon where the other person's total intent is to cut you, or shoot you - you basically have nothing to gain by being passive and everythnig to lose. But I think that if you survive you should give yourself a good butt kicking for having gotten into it in the first place.

On the gun situation, WITH intent to shoot you, you almost need the gun in contact with your body to make any disarm work; that close. With a separation distance of just a few feet you are pretty much dead meat. Out just a little farther, though, say maybe 20' on, I'd start to feel a little better because I believe most people with a handgun are hoplessly bad shots.

Shooting is a learned skill just like MA. The number of people in the world that train with handguns is probably even less than those that learn MA. Odds pretty good that the other guy has poor shooting skills. Then the question there is: "Do you feel lucky?" If he's gonna shoot you no matter what, my guess is that running away, as erratically as possible, gives you a better than 50/50 chance of not getting hit... unless, of course, he can run faster than you.

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#256365 - 05/22/06 11:21 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Joss]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Joss wrote pretty much what I was going to write. Avoidance and distance are the two primary things to keep in mind when facing weapons.
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#256366 - 05/22/06 12:58 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Some time ago we spent many seasons working with weapons.
Basically - as most have said already. If you can get out of there do that.

Gun - considder yourself done for. Use your brain to try to neurtalise the situation and hope they will listen.

Knife - It depends a lot on distance and how good the person is with the knife. If you practice you have a chance but most likely you will get cut. Hopefully you have a thick coat on, this helps for slashes so watch for the straight lunge or stab. Aikido training helps to learn how to avoid and enter.

Clubs or long objects like a bo or jo - Your chances are better with these. If they have not studied the use of these weapons they can be fairly easy to read. Again aikido helps to learn how to enter against such weapons. Distance is key again. There are pleanty of ways to use his concentration on the weapon against him. If you can catch it anywhere in his movement your kicks have extra power, he will not want to let go of it and you can pull him in while kicking. Another thing to watch for is - he will need to go to a deeper chamber before swing at you, so you can enter as he is going to that chamber and keep his momentium going back while attacking with whatever you wish.

It is difficult to explain actual moves to use so I kept the examples simple.
If you have not worked with weapons you should. It is great fun. You will notice right away that you defend and attack with more speed and power than when both are open handed, so be careful and don't get carried away.

Naturally you would work with wooden or rubber knifes and your opponent would not strike hard with clubs, bo or jo, until you got used to dealing with the possabilities.

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#256367 - 05/22/06 04:23 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Diga]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Don't know about the rest of you, but I find just *training* disarms scary. I mean, I'm not too bad - maybe just under half of the time I disarm. But, hell, half ain't gonna cut it As Joss and MattJ say, get the hell outta there, because every time you get 'cut' in class, that's proof that you're going to get cut in real life...
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#256368 - 05/22/06 05:12 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: TimBlack]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Another thing my Ju Jutsu sensei told me to say to someone who is close to you and has a weapon was " My budgie is at home, and she is getting married soon"

The idea is to totally baffle them, scramble their circuits for a couple of seconds. If they have a knife and are thinking "I'm gonna stab him, I'm gonna stab him, I'm gonna stab him.... wait, what he say about his budgie??!" It could give you vital seconds. Just some advice that was passed on to me.
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#256369 - 05/23/06 04:37 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Guns: at close range, do exactly as your attacker asks and hope to live through it. longer range i have heard that running in erratic zig zags is your best bet, and dont use anything but a building as cover- bullets travel through more than the movies would have people believe. Interesting trivia: if you dive to 1.5 meters (5ft approx) in water, any bullet entering the water will break up before reaching you due to the rapid cooling the water creates.(I love mythbusters).

Knife: the only time I am likely to be put in a situation against a bladed or pointed weapon is at work. I would probably let the guy know I was not going to prevent him escaping, give him safe passage, but ensure I drank in every detail of his appearance to pass on to the police. If the knife wielder was aggressive, I wear kevlar enforced slash resistant gloves, and carry an ASP batton, so would, if i had no other choice, focus all my attention on controlling the blade, and knocking the crap out of the guy holding it (no dissarms, just grab the blade for dear life and subdue him with brute force) or, using the baton to maximise my 'fence', swing away to keep the guy at a distance till help came (the joys of radio contact).
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#256370 - 05/23/06 01:49 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
We train gun and knife with air soft guns and rubber to wooden then real knives blade tapped. Its eye opening if a guys just walks up shoots ya, theres very little that you can do against it. Theres somethings but its mostly luck. A lot of the stuff we do is not empty hand vs. weapon, its weapon on weapon. But we do EH vs. gun or knives to show two things the real odds and when you got no choice try to live.

If its just a robbery give him your stuff, even if you are armed. But if they wants to do harm or force you to go with him, its time for another option, action. I already know that a lot of you don't agree with this, just roll over and hope that he lets you out of the trunk tied and bound. I personally don't agree, and lets leave that as that.

But air soft guns shoot 350-400fps thats a far cry from 650-1500fps that a real gun fires even at that we get hit 75% of the time in the step up and shoot no question asked and about 45% get them talking and distracted. Its not good odds bare handed, but a knife or a gun your odds of survive increases 65-80% of time with element of surprise you can WIN. Don't mean you don't get shot or cut, but not vital.

Now you are throat cutting and head shooting, you are trying to live.

I totally agree the odds are not in your favor, and got the whelps (300-450fps plastic pellets hurts 2ft to 10 yards away)to show it.

Just my 2 cent. Students get at a certain level you want to practice other things to enhance your skills.


Edited by Neko456 (05/23/06 01:57 PM)
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#256371 - 05/24/06 12:09 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Neko456]
brocksampson Offline
Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Savannah, GA
Neko, thanks, I really like the airsoft idea. It's more realistic than just a redgun and really shows the speed needed to avoid getting shot. I've worked with some LE self defense classes but I never saw anything more than redguns or maybe a cap gun. Great idea.

Recently Joss and I have been working some emptyhand vs. thug with training knife scenarios. As several others mentioned, you pretty much get cut. It's just damage control once he's decided to come at you. The longer the weapon is free the more you get stabbed and the longer the fight lasts the worse your odds of surviving it. I'd say right now I'm surviving 1-2 out of 10 attacks. My odds would be higher but there's just not enough room to really run.
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#256372 - 05/24/06 02:29 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
bo-ken Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I know a few people who have been attacked by someone with a knife.

One guy was lucky and was attacked like in the movies. The guy came from over his head with the knife straight down. The guy I train with caught his arm threw him and ran.

The other two people I know weren't so lucky. Both are still alive but didn't leave the fight without a lot of blood loss.

My advice would be run if you can but if the chips are down and you have to fight do it but with all you have. Weapons are nothing to mess with they designed to kill.

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#256373 - 05/28/06 11:50 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Like many of you, I don't train weapon disarms very regularly at all. But here is my philosophy behind dealing with weapons:

GUNS: Guns??? There aren't any guns here!! That's right, I have a next to nothing chance of getting shot! Hell, I didn't see a real gun till I was 16, and that was in the hand of a special unit policeman. You know, it's really simple to deal with guns in a country that doesn't have them. *rant over*

Knives: They are no that uncommon in England. There are only two bits of advice I can think of against knives. 1) Get some space and RUN!! 2) If this is not an option, grab the arm carrying the knife anyway you can, then unload a few strikes, untill you can get the space to run.

Or ofcouse, you could just scream for a passing bobby, there tend to be a fair few policemen/women around in the city where I am, we call them "bobbies on the beat."

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#256374 - 05/28/06 02:18 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
sashha Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/28/06
Posts: 1
I train with USSD. We have spent a good deal of time on street fighting techniques, including defense against guns and knives. There are definitely specific manuevers that you can use to disarm someone, assuming you have a moment or two of time. Generally speaking, you DO have time. More often than not, the perpetrator uses the weapon to accomplish some other crime, be it robbery, rape, etc. There are, or course, situations where there is no time to react, but that is not usually the case.

Like most defensive maneuvers, it is too complicated to write them... they should be shown and practiced.

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#256375 - 05/28/06 04:00 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: sashha]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
USSD?

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#256376 - 05/28/06 05:00 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: globetrotter]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Quote:

USSD?




It's the United Studios of Self Defence... a Kenpo offshoot from the Cerio lineage if I remember correctly.
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#256377 - 05/29/06 12:21 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: globetrotter]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

USSD?




Ultra Sonic Sh1t Dispensers?

Ugly Short Southern Democrats?

Unbeleivably Stupid Soda Drinkers?

Uneducated Short Stinky Doghumpers?

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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#256378 - 05/30/06 02:47 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: globetrotter]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Quote:

USSD?




They're all over the Denver area and will likely be the cause of some kid's death. Probably someone like Sassha who has "spent a good deal of time on street fighting techniques, including defense against guns and knives."
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Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass Iím going to kill something

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#256379 - 05/30/06 04:23 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: swseibukan]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
yeah, teaching people that somebody holding a gun on them is most likly not to use it is just plain dangerous, and will most probably lead to somebody getting killed.

I am as tough as the next fat old man. if somebody points a gun at me, I will do what he says. simple.

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#256380 - 05/31/06 08:11 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: globetrotter]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Good info from all.

Training for just a few sessions with Kyoshi Tino Cerebreano (40+ years in Goju Karate and Arnis) made me realise how ineffective the "good" knife defence stuff I've seen in Hapkido is against a trained person. The Hapkido stuff is meant to be gold compared to the other crap I've seen.

In short: train with a good kinfe man and see how deadly they can be. Then reasess your training before you make up a genral strategy.
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#256381 - 05/31/06 11:19 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Mark Hill]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
As a matter of interest, and as it's pretty much been established here that even top notch knife defenses are not much use against a trained attacker, is it safe to say that most training is designed to be used against someone who doesn't know how to use a knife (not that I want to stand and fight someone who's flailing a blade around randomly)?

I know that in my classes, the majority of techniques (hand to hand or otherwise) are learned initially as a basic response against an untrained assailant and then expanded to see what happens if he turns out to know what he's doing.

I think I've veered off the point somewhat. Oops.
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War. It's fan-tastic!

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#256382 - 07/23/06 08:14 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: ThomsonsPier]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
A gun is only as good as its user. Most of the people who wish you or I any harm are not trained firearm owners.

Yes, it is possible to disarm people who have guns pointed at you. Same with knives. Yes, it's dangerous. Having a gun pointed at you is dangerous too. Even more dangerous is trying to run from someone with a gun pointed at you because you don't know how to disarm him.

If you want to have a chance at living through an ordeal like that, you should have confidence in your ability to pull off disarms. Against knives your chances of success are lower- knives are dangerous in all directions.

But a gun is dangerous in an area of space about 10mm in diameter. If you're not in that 10mm of space when the gun is fired, you're not getting hit, simple as that. There's no special magic about guns that makes them super powerful. Again, a gun is only as useful as its owner.

If you train with confidence to pull off a quality gun disarm, you will at least have a chance of success given the opportunity. That sure as HELL beats trying to run and getting shot in the back because you didn't bother training for it at all.

Lastly, the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. Unless maybe you live in Iraq, in which case you already have a rifle and should use that to disarm your opponent. You're not in the mafia guys, just exactly who is trained in knives and guns and is going to hold you hostage? No, the people you'll be facing are cracked out junkies who probably stole the gun they're holding from someone else.

If you're close enough to consider disarms then you're close enough that the bad guy has virtually 100% chance of hitting you if you start running from him. If you're anywhere more than about 10 feet and less than 25 feet from a bad guy holding a gun at you, you're in big big trouble. You're going to die if you run at that distance and he shoots, trained or not, any idiot can hit a person at that distance. You can put a big shiny gold seal on that.

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#256383 - 07/23/06 09:33 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. .





By that reasoning, why study anything at all?
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#256384 - 07/23/06 10:15 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: paradoxbox]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think we run the risk here of going the Steven Segal route if we aren't careful. IMO, gun disarms have a slight to infinitesimal chance of working IF, the barrel is against your body. Beyond that you're fooling yourselves. Even then it's a risk. I don't know if anyone in their right mind comes up and sticks a gun in your back and says "This is a stick-up".

Most guys brandish a weapon for the purposes of intimidation. That usually means, they flash it and are a few feet away from you. Give them what they want and don't try to be Superman.

Not saying it isn't worth practicing disarms. But I would argue that if you've got a gun to your head, you screwed up somewhere along the way - long before the gun made its appearance. It is not making those mistakes we need to spend more time "practicing" and than gun disarms.

Steven Segal makes those things look really easy doesn't he?


-John

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#256385 - 07/23/06 11:33 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: globetrotter]
Xibalba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
Quote:

yeah, teaching people that somebody holding a gun on them is most likly not to use it is just plain dangerous, and will most probably lead to somebody getting killed.

I am as tough as the next fat old man. if somebody points a gun at me, I will do what he says. simple.




I agree with globetrotter's philosophy, to a point.

If the person pointing the gun to my head is asking for material possessions, he gets them. If, however, he directs me to "get in my car, come with me" etc., I will run (or fight if escape is not an option) if I can. Going to what some LEOs call "the second crime scene" is often a death sentence - the perp most likely wants to get you somewhere private where he can inflict greivous bodily harm or death. I would rather fight and possibly get shot in a more public venue where someone (hopefully) will hear the gunshot, find me, and call 911. I know my chances are still slim, but would be better than if I were to get shot at the perp's cabin in the woods.

And, I should be transparent, that I do NOT train weapon disarms - especially gun disarms. My kali experience taught me that weapon disarms are difficult to do effectively, so I would rather run when faced with a weapon (if at all possible).

Peace,
Mike

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#256386 - 07/23/06 05:06 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: kusojiji]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Quote:

Quote:

the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. .





By that reasoning, why study anything at all?




Specifically because you aren't going to need to disarm a trained gun user? If you're having to do that, then you're probably the criminal, and you deserve whatever you get for what you did to get into the situation you're in.

Take a trip over to thefiringline.com forums and see what they think about running from a man holding a gun at you within disarmament range. It's really a losing proposition. You're going to get shot in the back until you are dead, there's no doubt about it.

No one said you have do be unarmed to perform a disarm either. I know that many people here carry knives and guns when they're out and about. There's nothing stopping a person from simply waiting for the right moment then shooting their attacker, or sticking a knife through the base of his skull, or whatever. Disarms are mostly about timing and less about technical skill, though both are important. There's no reason to treat it as the stuff of movies when disarms can be and have been performed in the past in real life scenarios. If you get a chance to disarm, then take it, if you don't, then don't. There's no otherworldy mysticism about the whole thing.


A quick thought, one might consider all the training an LEO does in weapon retention to be disarmament training. I know I've seen a number of gun disarms where the scenario is the LEO has lost his firearm and needs to disarm the perp to get it back quickly. I think stuff like that is pretty routine for most departments is it not? Why bother training for it if it can't be done? It can be done and it just takes training and the right situation.

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#256387 - 07/24/06 08:39 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Xibalba]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Quote:

yeah, teaching people that somebody holding a gun on them is most likly not to use it is just plain dangerous, and will most probably lead to somebody getting killed.

I am as tough as the next fat old man. if somebody points a gun at me, I will do what he says. simple.




I agree with globetrotter's philosophy, to a point.

If the person pointing the gun to my head is asking for material possessions, he gets them. If, however, he directs me to "get in my car, come with me" etc., I will run (or fight if escape is not an option) if I can. Going to what some LEOs call "the second crime scene" is often a death sentence - the perp most likely wants to get you somewhere private where he can inflict greivous bodily harm or death. I would rather fight and possibly get shot in a more public venue where someone (hopefully) will hear the gunshot, find me, and call 911. I know my chances are still slim, but would be better than if I were to get shot at the perp's cabin in the woods.

And, I should be transparent, that I do NOT train weapon disarms - especially gun disarms. My kali experience taught me that weapon disarms are difficult to do effectively, so I would rather run when faced with a weapon (if at all possible).

Peace,
Mike




actually, mike, I agree with you - that would be an exception, I wouldn't move to a second site, either.

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#256388 - 07/24/06 12:59 PM arguing with yourself [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. .





By that reasoning, why study anything at all?




Specifically because you aren't going to need to disarm a trained gun user? If you're having to do that, then you're probably the criminal, and you deserve whatever you get for what you did to get into the situation you're in.

Take a trip over to thefiringline.com forums and see what they think about running from a man holding a gun at you within disarmament range. It's really a losing proposition. You're going to get shot in the back until you are dead, there's no doubt about it.

No one said you have do be unarmed to perform a disarm either. I know that many people here carry knives and guns when they're out and about. There's nothing stopping a person from simply waiting for the right moment then shooting their attacker, or sticking a knife through the base of his skull, or whatever. Disarms are mostly about timing and less about technical skill, though both are important. There's no reason to treat it as the stuff of movies when disarms can be and have been performed in the past in real life scenarios. If you get a chance to disarm, then take it, if you don't, then don't. There's no otherworldy mysticism about the whole thing.


A quick thought, one might consider all the training an LEO does in weapon retention to be disarmament training. I know I've seen a number of gun disarms where the scenario is the LEO has lost his firearm and needs to disarm the perp to get it back quickly. I think stuff like that is pretty routine for most departments is it not? Why bother training for it if it can't be done? It can be done and it just takes training and the right situation.




Don't tell me. YOU are the one who said, "the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering."

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#256389 - 07/24/06 03:04 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Very vague question, there are just too many senarios. But if you don't train as we have talked "alive vs. static" it would be best to hand over your wallet.
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The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#256390 - 07/24/06 09:54 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: kusojiji]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Quote:


Don't tell me. YOU are the one who said, "the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering."




What are you even arguing about, do you know? Because I sure as hell don't I never changed anything I was saying, the point being you're not going to face trained gun users unless you're a criminal.

Typical criminals into taking random people hostage aren't usually trained with weapons. You train to defeat people who are not trained with weapons like the crackheads who might try to force you into a van and drive into the woods..

Someone trained with weapons will probably beat you unless you have a weapon of your own.

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#256391 - 07/24/06 10:38 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
multiple personality disorder?


Edited by kusojiji (07/24/06 10:38 PM)
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#256392 - 07/24/06 10:41 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: kusojiji]
JKD__ Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 7
yeah i have multiple personality diserder...yeah i argue with my self about whether i did this or i didnt ...

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#256393 - 07/24/06 11:15 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: kusojiji]
Happy Birthday wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I used to be schizophrenic, but now I'm okay...

and so am I...

Defense against a gun... .40 caliber
Defense against a knife... .40 caliber, or MUCH BIGGER KNIFE
Unarmed defense against both... don't let them get off two shots in the same block or cut anything you don't sit on...

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#256394 - 07/26/06 02:58 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Mark Hill]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Any training is better then no training if its realistic. I believe that the Hapkido/Karate defense just like some of the Arnis stuff can work and the odds are against ya.

But they are far better then panic and no defense at all.
I've seen them work, the fault in this type training is staying unarmed. Anything can become a makeshift weapon.

The main thing that training has taught me is if attacked by an armed assailant don't stay unarmed long put obstabcles and distance between you if you can. Theres no law that you have to fight him empty hand long. Some get stuck here and die. If you can't strike and control. Then fight with all you got. If you have to die, die fighting. Unless stab or cut in a vital organ or artery you will have minutes of fight left give him thumb an eye, bite a nose, try to kill him. There is no doubt fighting armed attacker you are at a disadvanatge but in training I've seen trained knifers at a stand still facing a metal chair or two red chilli bricks or large metal ash trays or two sharpen pencils. No one wants to die.

With a gun if he talking and giving orders he ain't ready to shoot you. You got a chance talk to him and do what he wants as long as its not bond you and take you off. A gun assault where he walks up and shoots you is almost defense-less the odds in practice 75-80% you're dead. Anythng can happen he forgot take saftey off, misfires, have too much finger inside the guard, finger slips off the trigger, more common he misses the 1st shot. All these things can give you a chance to draw and fire or try a check away from you, while slapping both eyes then strike throat & grion.

Knife attack in close dangerous, knife attack at a distance with a brick in my hand danagerous for him. A 50mph brick can do alot of damage to the head or anywhere it hits.


Edited by Neko456 (07/26/06 03:04 PM)
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#256395 - 09/03/06 04:04 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
roostergunner Offline
Kentucky Fried Idiot

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 30
Loc: My own little world
I know a hardenned old military man who told me to attack a gun,run from a knife.At first this sounds crazy, but as he pointed out, with the gun they can shoot you as you run,they will have a lot harder time getting you with the knife as you run.Still,it seems verry dangerous to attack a gun.
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I am so dumb i stare at OJ cartons cuz they say 'Concentrate'.

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#256396 - 09/03/06 04:48 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: MattJ]
roostergunner Offline
Kentucky Fried Idiot

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 30
Loc: My own little world
I would run from the knife,I agree with most of what the replys were to this inquerry.
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I am so dumb i stare at OJ cartons cuz they say 'Concentrate'.

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#256397 - 09/24/06 11:02 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: brocksampson]
GreyHam Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 19
again, im in the UK so guns are not likely to be used by a mugger. they are something of a luxery to more organised gangs, who, to be honest, probaby arent going to be interested in the contents of my wallet (5 quid and a condom)


knfes - very real possibilty and very scary. it has been said before but chances are id hand over my wallet very rapidly. id only ever get involved if it was an intent to hurt me, or anyone im with. not as a macho thing but our lass just couldnt look after herself (shes like 5'1) and if on the offchance someone was threatening me with a knife while i had friends with me, mr knife would have to be very stupid.

i can run quite fast, knives are quite short. i think that works more in my favour than 'block grab elbow knee stomp stomp pegit'

the thing im more worried about than any of those, is the likelihood of getting into a fight and some more chavs turning up because in hull they literally come out of the woodwork. and chances are one of them can run faster than me

i stay inside a lot

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#256398 - 09/24/06 12:29 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: GreyHam]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Rather subjective question without a provided scenario. I guess what it really comes down to is how skilled is my opponent? Does he maintain proper distance? Do I see him brandish the weapon? Does he seem nervous or agitated? Has he assumed any specific stance or does he hold the weapon a certain way? All of these things affect the strategy to this kind of situation. Also, what does he want? The money in my wallet may or may not be worth it.

In a knife sitaution Im going for it most likely. If Ive seen him brandish the weapon the its likely that he doesnt have much quality training. In which case, I keep distance, feint and stick. When I strike I strike to incapacitate, or to at least disarm. Also I make sure I kick him in the knees alot. This helps keep the distance along with good footwork. Once the knife is dropped I may grapple I may not but guaranteed the intensity level just went up ten fold. At least until he is incapacitated or I can make my escape.

Now if I dont see it and he has cut me then I must be much faster in my escape. Hopefully, Im able to at least get a little reaction and maybe take the wound in a non fatal are such as the forearm. At this point Im taking note of his footwork. Im looking for escape routes and possible weapons. But mostly his footwork. Im trying to stop his feet. By taking his mobility he is no longer a threat. Unless he has a side pistol. Also I can tell when he is committing to the attack by watching his footwork. I can pick up un his rythm. Rather than him working the feint on me. Now I can see this going a number of ways but ideally I would attack his mobility as mentioned, then, Im looking for a chance to stuff him. Get to a standing clinch. Without momentum the knife becomes less of a threat. A threat still, but less of one. From here I work a knee or elbow, and from that I lead into a takedown, or a sprint.
Or I Try to throw blood in his eyes and run.

As for gun disarming. It depends on a few things. Do I see him pulling it? If so hopefully he is at a distance that I can get to him before he gets it up and sighted. If he is pulling up then while on the rush,(if possible) One hand is slapping the armed hand downward while the other is coming straight for his face. Once Ive slapped the gun, the other hand returns to striking. The goal is not a stand up punchout but instead a quick,savage, flurry in which I am attempting to, quiet honestly, take his life.

Now if he is skilled and keeps his distance then thats a different story. Hopefully he just wants some material possession. I calmly give it to him. If he wants me then this has to be worked very carefully. The first action I must do is regain distance. I have to be able to do one of two things. Reach him, or get enough distance to escape. If he tries to take me to the "second crime scene" then this will provide me most likely a chance to get close to him. Reason I say this is that most likely if he plans to transport me it will be in some sort of vehicle. And I suppose that if it was on foot he would have to be even closer because I really dont hang out in dark secluded alleys and he doesnt want other people to see whats going on. If I am able to get close Then I await my chance and then I press him hard while delivering a few good strikes. Then I drop to a double leg and attempt to ground and pound. Hopefully during the course of all this the gun has been dropped. After Im sure he is incapacitated, really sure, then i get up, kick the gun away from him and run like hell.

Now, these are must fight scenarios. I would only use any of the above strategies If I had to fight and the right conditions are there but my number one priority is always escape. If you escape you survive.
_________________________
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#256399 - 09/24/06 12:31 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: JKogas]
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Quote:

Guns?? I don't even TRAIN gun disarms. I just don't see the point in doing so. For stuff like that to work, a person would almost have to be very close and stick the barrel of the gun right against you. Giving up your wallet or car would be preferable to being shot so, those would be my first options.




There is a point to weapon defense and that's to stay alive. I agree that if the assailant just wants your property then by all menas give it up and live to tell about it. However, if they want your life than you have two options- give up and likely die or do whatever is necessary to survive. I personally would choose survival but that's just me.

Quote:

Knife is another story, and I still don't train that very much. When we do knife training, we use a program called "Red Zone" from Jerry Wetzel. It's good stuff and worth looking into.




The original Red Zone program is Ok but there are better options available. Personally I think they use a biomechanically weak grip on the weapon-bearing limb and place the rest of their body in a vulnerable position. I haven't seen the Red Zone 2 program so I can't say wether or not they fixed those potentially fatal flaws. Also, their defense doesn't transfer over well to firearm defense. Personally I prefer tactics that are essentially the same regardless of the weapon being used, basically adhering to Hick's Law.

Just some other points- I think there is too much emphasis on a "disarm". When I hear that term I think of the traditional techniques that include grabbing the gun and attempting to jerk it from the assailant's grip or attempting a lock & strip of some kind. While some of these techniques can and do work I personally prefer to secure the weapon delivery system and then neutralize the threat. Once the threat is neutralized I will worry about a gun take-away.

Also, there is a lot of emphasis on "trained" knife and gun attackers. As was mentioned, the liklihood of facing a "trained" or highly skilled criminal attacker is pretty slim. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. While there are some hardend criminals who do spend a little time training, very few would fit under the category of "trained" or highly skilled.

Also, people have mentioned that in order for a defense to be applicable against a gun the gun must be in contact with the body. This actually isn't true. While the gun must be within reaching distance it doesn't have to be against the body. The key is learning to use psychological manipulation that will allow you to get closer to the gun before attempting your defense. Also, as most people here should know, action beats reaction. Even though the assailant only has to react by pulling the trigger an eighth of an inch or less, if your intitial action is properly executed there is no reason you can't gain a split second advantage and avoid getting shot during the initial discharge. As for running from a gun- I would only suggest running if the distance is too great to prevent a solid defense. While it is true that you could be shot if you attempt to run it's not likely. The reason, the assailant didn't necessarily want to shoot you or he would have done so right from the start. Since he hesitated to shoot right from the beginning he won't be prepared to do so unless he is startled or threatend. Also, he isn't expecting you to run, he chose you because he is expecting you to do exactly what he wants. When you explosively run in the opposite direction this will interrupt his OODA Lopp and buy you a second before he realizes what just happened. Since he doesn't want to draw attention to himself and because he is dumbfounded he won't likley shoot. Even if he does shoot because of his state of mind he won't likley hit you anyway.

In regards to knife attacks verus gun attacks- keep this mind. For effective hits guns generally have to be aimed at approximately 90 degrees to the intended target, they only have a certain amount of ammo, they can easily be knocked out of battery with the proper grip, and once disabled they can only be used as impact weapons. Knives on the other hand can inflict injury from almost any angle, never run out of ammo, can't be disabled, and they are easily accessible (by anyone) in almost every home in this country.



Steve Zorn, ICPS

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#256400 - 09/24/06 11:26 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: szorn]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Good post. ICPS? Is that a cop term?

I agree at most of it and hinted at some of it in my own but one part of your post stuck out to me. The part about trained criminals.

Obviously most criminals dont spend the dojo hours that a martial artists does, however, they most likely engage in more street altercations than your average MA, and real life experience is going to help them to a degree. To a martial artist coming out of a blackbelt factory that could sway the entire fight. Also, if the hardened criminal has done prison time, he has likely spent way more time lifting weights than I have. This obviously is far from absolute but its something that could also be a factor. Also, how much training does one need to point and pull? From 10 foot or less? Ten foot is easily enough to keep you at bay without being able to effectively rush. And not that far to hit from. My arm is roughly 36 inches held straight out with a closed fist. If he is over 3 and a half or four, you really gotta consider whats at stake very quickly.

Also, I see where your going on the knife versus gun description you gave, but I honestly gotta say that the gun to me still remains the larger threat. A knife never missed you and hurt a loved one or a civilian that was otherwise removed from harms way. Also the knife has no range once you attempt the escape, and escape iss always the number one priority.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#256401 - 09/28/06 01:05 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Chen Zen]
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Quote:

Good post. ICPS? Is that a cop term?




It's a designation- International Crime Prevention Specialist


Quote:

Obviously most criminals dont spend the dojo hours that a martial artists does, however, they most likely engage in more street altercations than your average MA, and real life experience is going to help them to a degree. To a martial artist coming out of a blackbelt factory that could sway the entire fight. Also, if the hardened criminal has done prison time, he has likely spent way more time lifting weights than I have. This obviously is far from absolute but its something that could also be a factor.




I would agree that some criminals do train and many have street experience and some do exercise, which is why I mentioned that. However, like most people- some don't train, some don't have real experience, and some don't exercise. Even those with some experience, training, and fitness wouldn't be considered highly trained. In fact, while those in question might be meaner, more aggressive, and way more vicious than the average martial artists they still make the same types of physical mistakes that most untrained individuals make.

Quote:

Also, how much training does one need to point and pull? From 10 foot or less? Ten foot is easily enough to keep you at bay without being able to effectively rush. And not that far to hit from. My arm is roughly 36 inches held straight out with a closed fist. If he is over 3 and a half or four, you really gotta consider whats at stake very quickly.




You are correct, it doesn't take much to point and pull. However, we know that the majority of criminals aren't necessarily interested in shooting unless they are threatend or unless they want to wait until they get the victim to a more secluded location. If the attack is an ambush where the assailant stands 10 feet from the intended victim and starts shooting, I agree that's tough to deal with and likely impossible to physically defend against. The best option is to move, run, and hope you don't receive a fatal wound. However, if it happens to be a common situation where the firearm is used to theaten or intimidate, to move the intended victim to a secluded location, the assailant will most likely instinctively close the distance to increase the intimidation effect. It would be when the assailant closes the distance and the intended victim feels that they may likely be shot anyway that defensive measures would come into play. I would never recommend a firearm defense if the assailant only wanted property.

Quote:

Also, I see where your going on the knife versus gun description you gave, but I honestly gotta say that the gun to me still remains the larger threat. A knife never missed you and hurt a loved one or a civilian that was otherwise removed from harms way. Also the knife has no range once you attempt the escape, and escape iss always the number one priority.




I would agree with you in that the gun may be more of a threat to bystanders, due to the initial discharge. However, if proper but simple tactics are used (when no other option is available) the chances of an intitial discharge will be reduced and any additional discharges will be practically eliminated.

Also, I agree on the issue of escape. As I mentioned if the distance is great enough and the escape is unexpected, the chances of the assailant being able to discharge the weapon and actually fatally hit the victim are pretty low.

Ultimately it comes down to proper awareness, avoidance, and prevention. In other words, never find yourself in such a situtaion in the first place. However, even the most aware people find themselves in bad situations from time to time. If that happens to be the case, escape should be the first option, if escape is not an option de-escalation should be exhausted and if these are no longer options and the threat of death is high, last-ditch defense tactics should be utilized followed by immediate and explosive escape.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

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#256402 - 09/28/06 01:28 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: szorn]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Impressive "designation".

I would have to agree that awareness is the first weapon in self defense. You did mention something that caught my attention and that was when you mentioned the aggressiveness of the common criminal. This is something rarely seen in the dojo. I think this is why you sometimes here stories of blackbelts freezing up and things like that. Ive seen people on this very site comeout and say that they would be overwhelmed by this or that because they had never even been in a schoolyard brawl. What can be done about things such as that? Sure you can intensify training but in the back of his mind each student knows he is safe and he knows that the other guy isnt really trying to hurt him. What does law enforcement do?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#256403 - 09/28/06 04:03 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

I noticed some articles on the home page regarding weapon disarms,but not many of us train them enough to actually be effective,I know I don't.
What would be your best advice to someone who has a weapon pulled on them? It could be a gun or knife at any range.




I once had a shotgun pointed at me at point blank. The guy fired off a few rounds but I shrugged them off, and then I punched him in the face and he dropped the gun!!!1elevenone

Naw but seriously. If someone pointed a gun at me, I'd just hand over my wallet. If his intention clearly was to kill me regardless, I'd do my best to get away while dodging like a maniac.

An assailant with a knife - when possible at all, I'd run as if my balls were on fire. If there was absolutely no way of getting away and he jabbed the knife at me, I'd do my best at the knife disarming techniques I've trained over the years. Note, these techniques are pretty simple, and I can execute them perfectly at full speed in a training situation, but if there was ANY chance of getting away at all, I'd forget about defending myself and just run.

There's nothing glorious about dying.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

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#256404 - 09/29/06 12:50 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Zyranyth]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

An assailant with a knife - when possible at all, I'd run as if my balls were on fire.


Oh boy thats a funny sentence I laughed for ages when i read that
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#256405 - 09/29/06 06:21 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: crablord]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

Quote:

An assailant with a knife - when possible at all, I'd run as if my balls were on fire.


Oh boy thats a funny sentence I laughed for ages when i read that




Heh. It's true though. Sticking around is just not worth the risk if you can get away by jetting.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

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#256406 - 09/30/06 02:30 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Zyranyth]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
I cant get that thought out of my head lol, its totally hilarious for some reason. Ive been getting random laughs from that for about 2 days
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#256407 - 10/03/06 09:20 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: crablord]
Hash Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 28
The strategy against any weapon is the same as for empty hands. Avoid the situation or run if you can, if not, hit him in the neck real quick-like. Attempting to disarm someone will more than likely get you killed.

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#256408 - 10/11/06 03:59 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Chen Zen]
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Quote:



I would have to agree that awareness is the first weapon in self defense. You did mention something that caught my attention and that was when you mentioned the aggressiveness of the common criminal. This is something rarely seen in the dojo. I think this is why you sometimes here stories of blackbelts freezing up and things like that. Ive seen people on this very site comeout and say that they would be overwhelmed by this or that because they had never even been in a schoolyard brawl. What can be done about things such as that? Sure you can intensify training but in the back of his mind each student knows he is safe and he knows that the other guy isnt really trying to hurt him. What does law enforcement do?




Freezing up can be a result of any number of factors. However, it's pretty common to hear that during an intense adrenal response the physiological and psychological effects become overwhelming for those who have never felt it before and they freeze. The key to learning to deal with these effects is to address them in training. This is accomplished by using adrenal response drills and realistic scenario simulations. Essentially making the scenarios as real as possible while avoiding accidents and injuries. While it is true that this won't create an adrenal response of the same intensity as a real situation, it does increase skill performance and retention dramatically. This is often referred to as "stress inoculation". It doesn't remove the stressor but it does reduce the effects that the stressor has on the mind and body. There are quite a few programs out there that do this type of training to include FAST Defense, RAW Power, Model Mugging, Etc.

In regards to our topic, the instructor can bring in hard aluminum training knives and airsoft firearm replicas to use in weapon defense training. The hard aluminum knives will hurt when the student gets tagged with them but they won't create serious injury as long as proper safety protocols & protective gear are used. Airsoft will hurt when they shoot the student, but again are fairly safe is used properly and with proper protective gear. Since most people don't want to feel pain this will active a mild adrenal response during the drills. This in conjunction with good acting, aggressive and realistic language, and possibly partners the student has never worked with before will increase the adrenal response to the next level. Then as the student becomes more skilled and comfortable with the drills you increase the intensity- maybe two or three attackers, etc.


Steve Zorn, ICPS

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#256409 - 10/11/06 12:06 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: szorn]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Excellent Post. I wonder why it is that many traditional schools dont take such an approach.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#256410 - 10/11/06 02:24 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Chen Zen]
steelwater Offline
On the Ansatsuken installment-plan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
Please, simply crescent kick the gun or knife out of their hand. If Chuck can do it, so can I.






Just kidding. If I could, I'd just run and scream bloody murder.
_________________________
Memoirs of a Karateka

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#256411 - 10/14/06 03:34 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: steelwater]
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Quote:

Please, simply crescent kick the gun or knife out of their hand. If Chuck can do it, so can I.







The sad thing is that there are actually instructors out there teaching those types of techniques.

Great for the movies but bad anywhere else!

Steve Zorn, ICPS

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