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#256401 - 09/28/06 01:05 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Chen Zen]
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Quote:

Good post. ICPS? Is that a cop term?




It's a designation- International Crime Prevention Specialist


Quote:

Obviously most criminals dont spend the dojo hours that a martial artists does, however, they most likely engage in more street altercations than your average MA, and real life experience is going to help them to a degree. To a martial artist coming out of a blackbelt factory that could sway the entire fight. Also, if the hardened criminal has done prison time, he has likely spent way more time lifting weights than I have. This obviously is far from absolute but its something that could also be a factor.




I would agree that some criminals do train and many have street experience and some do exercise, which is why I mentioned that. However, like most people- some don't train, some don't have real experience, and some don't exercise. Even those with some experience, training, and fitness wouldn't be considered highly trained. In fact, while those in question might be meaner, more aggressive, and way more vicious than the average martial artists they still make the same types of physical mistakes that most untrained individuals make.

Quote:

Also, how much training does one need to point and pull? From 10 foot or less? Ten foot is easily enough to keep you at bay without being able to effectively rush. And not that far to hit from. My arm is roughly 36 inches held straight out with a closed fist. If he is over 3 and a half or four, you really gotta consider whats at stake very quickly.




You are correct, it doesn't take much to point and pull. However, we know that the majority of criminals aren't necessarily interested in shooting unless they are threatend or unless they want to wait until they get the victim to a more secluded location. If the attack is an ambush where the assailant stands 10 feet from the intended victim and starts shooting, I agree that's tough to deal with and likely impossible to physically defend against. The best option is to move, run, and hope you don't receive a fatal wound. However, if it happens to be a common situation where the firearm is used to theaten or intimidate, to move the intended victim to a secluded location, the assailant will most likely instinctively close the distance to increase the intimidation effect. It would be when the assailant closes the distance and the intended victim feels that they may likely be shot anyway that defensive measures would come into play. I would never recommend a firearm defense if the assailant only wanted property.

Quote:

Also, I see where your going on the knife versus gun description you gave, but I honestly gotta say that the gun to me still remains the larger threat. A knife never missed you and hurt a loved one or a civilian that was otherwise removed from harms way. Also the knife has no range once you attempt the escape, and escape iss always the number one priority.




I would agree with you in that the gun may be more of a threat to bystanders, due to the initial discharge. However, if proper but simple tactics are used (when no other option is available) the chances of an intitial discharge will be reduced and any additional discharges will be practically eliminated.

Also, I agree on the issue of escape. As I mentioned if the distance is great enough and the escape is unexpected, the chances of the assailant being able to discharge the weapon and actually fatally hit the victim are pretty low.

Ultimately it comes down to proper awareness, avoidance, and prevention. In other words, never find yourself in such a situtaion in the first place. However, even the most aware people find themselves in bad situations from time to time. If that happens to be the case, escape should be the first option, if escape is not an option de-escalation should be exhausted and if these are no longer options and the threat of death is high, last-ditch defense tactics should be utilized followed by immediate and explosive escape.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

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#256402 - 09/28/06 01:28 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: szorn]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Impressive "designation".

I would have to agree that awareness is the first weapon in self defense. You did mention something that caught my attention and that was when you mentioned the aggressiveness of the common criminal. This is something rarely seen in the dojo. I think this is why you sometimes here stories of blackbelts freezing up and things like that. Ive seen people on this very site comeout and say that they would be overwhelmed by this or that because they had never even been in a schoolyard brawl. What can be done about things such as that? Sure you can intensify training but in the back of his mind each student knows he is safe and he knows that the other guy isnt really trying to hurt him. What does law enforcement do?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#256403 - 09/28/06 04:03 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

I noticed some articles on the home page regarding weapon disarms,but not many of us train them enough to actually be effective,I know I don't.
What would be your best advice to someone who has a weapon pulled on them? It could be a gun or knife at any range.




I once had a shotgun pointed at me at point blank. The guy fired off a few rounds but I shrugged them off, and then I punched him in the face and he dropped the gun!!!1elevenone

Naw but seriously. If someone pointed a gun at me, I'd just hand over my wallet. If his intention clearly was to kill me regardless, I'd do my best to get away while dodging like a maniac.

An assailant with a knife - when possible at all, I'd run as if my balls were on fire. If there was absolutely no way of getting away and he jabbed the knife at me, I'd do my best at the knife disarming techniques I've trained over the years. Note, these techniques are pretty simple, and I can execute them perfectly at full speed in a training situation, but if there was ANY chance of getting away at all, I'd forget about defending myself and just run.

There's nothing glorious about dying.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

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#256404 - 09/29/06 12:50 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Zyranyth]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

An assailant with a knife - when possible at all, I'd run as if my balls were on fire.


Oh boy thats a funny sentence I laughed for ages when i read that
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#256405 - 09/29/06 06:21 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: crablord]
Zyranyth Offline
Member

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 188
Loc: Finland
Quote:

Quote:

An assailant with a knife - when possible at all, I'd run as if my balls were on fire.


Oh boy thats a funny sentence I laughed for ages when i read that




Heh. It's true though. Sticking around is just not worth the risk if you can get away by jetting.
_________________________
"Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it. "

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#256406 - 09/30/06 02:30 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Zyranyth]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
I cant get that thought out of my head lol, its totally hilarious for some reason. Ive been getting random laughs from that for about 2 days
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#256407 - 10/03/06 09:20 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: crablord]
Hash Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/06
Posts: 28
The strategy against any weapon is the same as for empty hands. Avoid the situation or run if you can, if not, hit him in the neck real quick-like. Attempting to disarm someone will more than likely get you killed.

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#256408 - 10/11/06 03:59 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Chen Zen]
szorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Quote:



I would have to agree that awareness is the first weapon in self defense. You did mention something that caught my attention and that was when you mentioned the aggressiveness of the common criminal. This is something rarely seen in the dojo. I think this is why you sometimes here stories of blackbelts freezing up and things like that. Ive seen people on this very site comeout and say that they would be overwhelmed by this or that because they had never even been in a schoolyard brawl. What can be done about things such as that? Sure you can intensify training but in the back of his mind each student knows he is safe and he knows that the other guy isnt really trying to hurt him. What does law enforcement do?




Freezing up can be a result of any number of factors. However, it's pretty common to hear that during an intense adrenal response the physiological and psychological effects become overwhelming for those who have never felt it before and they freeze. The key to learning to deal with these effects is to address them in training. This is accomplished by using adrenal response drills and realistic scenario simulations. Essentially making the scenarios as real as possible while avoiding accidents and injuries. While it is true that this won't create an adrenal response of the same intensity as a real situation, it does increase skill performance and retention dramatically. This is often referred to as "stress inoculation". It doesn't remove the stressor but it does reduce the effects that the stressor has on the mind and body. There are quite a few programs out there that do this type of training to include FAST Defense, RAW Power, Model Mugging, Etc.

In regards to our topic, the instructor can bring in hard aluminum training knives and airsoft firearm replicas to use in weapon defense training. The hard aluminum knives will hurt when the student gets tagged with them but they won't create serious injury as long as proper safety protocols & protective gear are used. Airsoft will hurt when they shoot the student, but again are fairly safe is used properly and with proper protective gear. Since most people don't want to feel pain this will active a mild adrenal response during the drills. This in conjunction with good acting, aggressive and realistic language, and possibly partners the student has never worked with before will increase the adrenal response to the next level. Then as the student becomes more skilled and comfortable with the drills you increase the intensity- maybe two or three attackers, etc.


Steve Zorn, ICPS

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#256409 - 10/11/06 12:06 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: szorn]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Excellent Post. I wonder why it is that many traditional schools dont take such an approach.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#256410 - 10/11/06 02:24 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Chen Zen]
steelwater Offline
On the Ansatsuken installment-plan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
Please, simply crescent kick the gun or knife out of their hand. If Chuck can do it, so can I.






Just kidding. If I could, I'd just run and scream bloody murder.
_________________________
Memoirs of a Karateka

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