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#256391 - 07/24/06 10:38 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
multiple personality disorder?

Edited by kusojiji (07/24/06 10:38 PM)
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#256392 - 07/24/06 10:41 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: kusojiji]
JKD__ Offline

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 7
yeah i have multiple personality diserder...yeah i argue with my self about whether i did this or i didnt ...

#256393 - 07/24/06 11:15 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: kusojiji]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I used to be schizophrenic, but now I'm okay...

and so am I...

Defense against a gun... .40 caliber
Defense against a knife... .40 caliber, or MUCH BIGGER KNIFE
Unarmed defense against both... don't let them get off two shots in the same block or cut anything you don't sit on...

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#256394 - 07/26/06 02:58 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Mark Hill]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Any training is better then no training if its realistic. I believe that the Hapkido/Karate defense just like some of the Arnis stuff can work and the odds are against ya.

But they are far better then panic and no defense at all.
I've seen them work, the fault in this type training is staying unarmed. Anything can become a makeshift weapon.

The main thing that training has taught me is if attacked by an armed assailant don't stay unarmed long put obstabcles and distance between you if you can. Theres no law that you have to fight him empty hand long. Some get stuck here and die. If you can't strike and control. Then fight with all you got. If you have to die, die fighting. Unless stab or cut in a vital organ or artery you will have minutes of fight left give him thumb an eye, bite a nose, try to kill him. There is no doubt fighting armed attacker you are at a disadvanatge but in training I've seen trained knifers at a stand still facing a metal chair or two red chilli bricks or large metal ash trays or two sharpen pencils. No one wants to die.

With a gun if he talking and giving orders he ain't ready to shoot you. You got a chance talk to him and do what he wants as long as its not bond you and take you off. A gun assault where he walks up and shoots you is almost defense-less the odds in practice 75-80% you're dead. Anythng can happen he forgot take saftey off, misfires, have too much finger inside the guard, finger slips off the trigger, more common he misses the 1st shot. All these things can give you a chance to draw and fire or try a check away from you, while slapping both eyes then strike throat & grion.

Knife attack in close dangerous, knife attack at a distance with a brick in my hand danagerous for him. A 50mph brick can do alot of damage to the head or anywhere it hits.

Edited by Neko456 (07/26/06 03:04 PM)

#256395 - 09/03/06 04:04 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
roostergunner Offline
Kentucky Fried Idiot

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 30
Loc: My own little world
I know a hardenned old military man who told me to attack a gun,run from a knife.At first this sounds crazy, but as he pointed out, with the gun they can shoot you as you run,they will have a lot harder time getting you with the knife as you run.Still,it seems verry dangerous to attack a gun.
I am so dumb i stare at OJ cartons cuz they say 'Concentrate'.

#256396 - 09/03/06 04:48 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: MattJ]
roostergunner Offline
Kentucky Fried Idiot

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 30
Loc: My own little world
I would run from the knife,I agree with most of what the replys were to this inquerry.
I am so dumb i stare at OJ cartons cuz they say 'Concentrate'.

#256397 - 09/24/06 11:02 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: brocksampson]
GreyHam Offline

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 19
again, im in the UK so guns are not likely to be used by a mugger. they are something of a luxery to more organised gangs, who, to be honest, probaby arent going to be interested in the contents of my wallet (5 quid and a condom)

knfes - very real possibilty and very scary. it has been said before but chances are id hand over my wallet very rapidly. id only ever get involved if it was an intent to hurt me, or anyone im with. not as a macho thing but our lass just couldnt look after herself (shes like 5'1) and if on the offchance someone was threatening me with a knife while i had friends with me, mr knife would have to be very stupid.

i can run quite fast, knives are quite short. i think that works more in my favour than 'block grab elbow knee stomp stomp pegit'

the thing im more worried about than any of those, is the likelihood of getting into a fight and some more chavs turning up because in hull they literally come out of the woodwork. and chances are one of them can run faster than me

i stay inside a lot

#256398 - 09/24/06 12:29 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: GreyHam]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Rather subjective question without a provided scenario. I guess what it really comes down to is how skilled is my opponent? Does he maintain proper distance? Do I see him brandish the weapon? Does he seem nervous or agitated? Has he assumed any specific stance or does he hold the weapon a certain way? All of these things affect the strategy to this kind of situation. Also, what does he want? The money in my wallet may or may not be worth it.

In a knife sitaution Im going for it most likely. If Ive seen him brandish the weapon the its likely that he doesnt have much quality training. In which case, I keep distance, feint and stick. When I strike I strike to incapacitate, or to at least disarm. Also I make sure I kick him in the knees alot. This helps keep the distance along with good footwork. Once the knife is dropped I may grapple I may not but guaranteed the intensity level just went up ten fold. At least until he is incapacitated or I can make my escape.

Now if I dont see it and he has cut me then I must be much faster in my escape. Hopefully, Im able to at least get a little reaction and maybe take the wound in a non fatal are such as the forearm. At this point Im taking note of his footwork. Im looking for escape routes and possible weapons. But mostly his footwork. Im trying to stop his feet. By taking his mobility he is no longer a threat. Unless he has a side pistol. Also I can tell when he is committing to the attack by watching his footwork. I can pick up un his rythm. Rather than him working the feint on me. Now I can see this going a number of ways but ideally I would attack his mobility as mentioned, then, Im looking for a chance to stuff him. Get to a standing clinch. Without momentum the knife becomes less of a threat. A threat still, but less of one. From here I work a knee or elbow, and from that I lead into a takedown, or a sprint.
Or I Try to throw blood in his eyes and run.

As for gun disarming. It depends on a few things. Do I see him pulling it? If so hopefully he is at a distance that I can get to him before he gets it up and sighted. If he is pulling up then while on the rush,(if possible) One hand is slapping the armed hand downward while the other is coming straight for his face. Once Ive slapped the gun, the other hand returns to striking. The goal is not a stand up punchout but instead a quick,savage, flurry in which I am attempting to, quiet honestly, take his life.

Now if he is skilled and keeps his distance then thats a different story. Hopefully he just wants some material possession. I calmly give it to him. If he wants me then this has to be worked very carefully. The first action I must do is regain distance. I have to be able to do one of two things. Reach him, or get enough distance to escape. If he tries to take me to the "second crime scene" then this will provide me most likely a chance to get close to him. Reason I say this is that most likely if he plans to transport me it will be in some sort of vehicle. And I suppose that if it was on foot he would have to be even closer because I really dont hang out in dark secluded alleys and he doesnt want other people to see whats going on. If I am able to get close Then I await my chance and then I press him hard while delivering a few good strikes. Then I drop to a double leg and attempt to ground and pound. Hopefully during the course of all this the gun has been dropped. After Im sure he is incapacitated, really sure, then i get up, kick the gun away from him and run like hell.

Now, these are must fight scenarios. I would only use any of the above strategies If I had to fight and the right conditions are there but my number one priority is always escape. If you escape you survive.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#256399 - 09/24/06 12:31 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: JKogas]
szorn Offline

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA

Guns?? I don't even TRAIN gun disarms. I just don't see the point in doing so. For stuff like that to work, a person would almost have to be very close and stick the barrel of the gun right against you. Giving up your wallet or car would be preferable to being shot so, those would be my first options.

There is a point to weapon defense and that's to stay alive. I agree that if the assailant just wants your property then by all menas give it up and live to tell about it. However, if they want your life than you have two options- give up and likely die or do whatever is necessary to survive. I personally would choose survival but that's just me.


Knife is another story, and I still don't train that very much. When we do knife training, we use a program called "Red Zone" from Jerry Wetzel. It's good stuff and worth looking into.

The original Red Zone program is Ok but there are better options available. Personally I think they use a biomechanically weak grip on the weapon-bearing limb and place the rest of their body in a vulnerable position. I haven't seen the Red Zone 2 program so I can't say wether or not they fixed those potentially fatal flaws. Also, their defense doesn't transfer over well to firearm defense. Personally I prefer tactics that are essentially the same regardless of the weapon being used, basically adhering to Hick's Law.

Just some other points- I think there is too much emphasis on a "disarm". When I hear that term I think of the traditional techniques that include grabbing the gun and attempting to jerk it from the assailant's grip or attempting a lock & strip of some kind. While some of these techniques can and do work I personally prefer to secure the weapon delivery system and then neutralize the threat. Once the threat is neutralized I will worry about a gun take-away.

Also, there is a lot of emphasis on "trained" knife and gun attackers. As was mentioned, the liklihood of facing a "trained" or highly skilled criminal attacker is pretty slim. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No. While there are some hardend criminals who do spend a little time training, very few would fit under the category of "trained" or highly skilled.

Also, people have mentioned that in order for a defense to be applicable against a gun the gun must be in contact with the body. This actually isn't true. While the gun must be within reaching distance it doesn't have to be against the body. The key is learning to use psychological manipulation that will allow you to get closer to the gun before attempting your defense. Also, as most people here should know, action beats reaction. Even though the assailant only has to react by pulling the trigger an eighth of an inch or less, if your intitial action is properly executed there is no reason you can't gain a split second advantage and avoid getting shot during the initial discharge. As for running from a gun- I would only suggest running if the distance is too great to prevent a solid defense. While it is true that you could be shot if you attempt to run it's not likely. The reason, the assailant didn't necessarily want to shoot you or he would have done so right from the start. Since he hesitated to shoot right from the beginning he won't be prepared to do so unless he is startled or threatend. Also, he isn't expecting you to run, he chose you because he is expecting you to do exactly what he wants. When you explosively run in the opposite direction this will interrupt his OODA Lopp and buy you a second before he realizes what just happened. Since he doesn't want to draw attention to himself and because he is dumbfounded he won't likley shoot. Even if he does shoot because of his state of mind he won't likley hit you anyway.

In regards to knife attacks verus gun attacks- keep this mind. For effective hits guns generally have to be aimed at approximately 90 degrees to the intended target, they only have a certain amount of ammo, they can easily be knocked out of battery with the proper grip, and once disabled they can only be used as impact weapons. Knives on the other hand can inflict injury from almost any angle, never run out of ammo, can't be disabled, and they are easily accessible (by anyone) in almost every home in this country.

Steve Zorn, ICPS

#256400 - 09/24/06 11:26 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: szorn]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Good post. ICPS? Is that a cop term?

I agree at most of it and hinted at some of it in my own but one part of your post stuck out to me. The part about trained criminals.

Obviously most criminals dont spend the dojo hours that a martial artists does, however, they most likely engage in more street altercations than your average MA, and real life experience is going to help them to a degree. To a martial artist coming out of a blackbelt factory that could sway the entire fight. Also, if the hardened criminal has done prison time, he has likely spent way more time lifting weights than I have. This obviously is far from absolute but its something that could also be a factor. Also, how much training does one need to point and pull? From 10 foot or less? Ten foot is easily enough to keep you at bay without being able to effectively rush. And not that far to hit from. My arm is roughly 36 inches held straight out with a closed fist. If he is over 3 and a half or four, you really gotta consider whats at stake very quickly.

Also, I see where your going on the knife versus gun description you gave, but I honestly gotta say that the gun to me still remains the larger threat. A knife never missed you and hurt a loved one or a civilian that was otherwise removed from harms way. Also the knife has no range once you attempt the escape, and escape iss always the number one priority.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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