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#256381 - 05/31/06 11:19 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Mark Hill]
ThomsonsPier Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
As a matter of interest, and as it's pretty much been established here that even top notch knife defenses are not much use against a trained attacker, is it safe to say that most training is designed to be used against someone who doesn't know how to use a knife (not that I want to stand and fight someone who's flailing a blade around randomly)?

I know that in my classes, the majority of techniques (hand to hand or otherwise) are learned initially as a basic response against an untrained assailant and then expanded to see what happens if he turns out to know what he's doing.

I think I've veered off the point somewhat. Oops.
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#256382 - 07/23/06 08:14 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: ThomsonsPier]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
A gun is only as good as its user. Most of the people who wish you or I any harm are not trained firearm owners.

Yes, it is possible to disarm people who have guns pointed at you. Same with knives. Yes, it's dangerous. Having a gun pointed at you is dangerous too. Even more dangerous is trying to run from someone with a gun pointed at you because you don't know how to disarm him.

If you want to have a chance at living through an ordeal like that, you should have confidence in your ability to pull off disarms. Against knives your chances of success are lower- knives are dangerous in all directions.

But a gun is dangerous in an area of space about 10mm in diameter. If you're not in that 10mm of space when the gun is fired, you're not getting hit, simple as that. There's no special magic about guns that makes them super powerful. Again, a gun is only as useful as its owner.

If you train with confidence to pull off a quality gun disarm, you will at least have a chance of success given the opportunity. That sure as HELL beats trying to run and getting shot in the back because you didn't bother training for it at all.

Lastly, the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. Unless maybe you live in Iraq, in which case you already have a rifle and should use that to disarm your opponent. You're not in the mafia guys, just exactly who is trained in knives and guns and is going to hold you hostage? No, the people you'll be facing are cracked out junkies who probably stole the gun they're holding from someone else.

If you're close enough to consider disarms then you're close enough that the bad guy has virtually 100% chance of hitting you if you start running from him. If you're anywhere more than about 10 feet and less than 25 feet from a bad guy holding a gun at you, you're in big big trouble. You're going to die if you run at that distance and he shoots, trained or not, any idiot can hit a person at that distance. You can put a big shiny gold seal on that.

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#256383 - 07/23/06 09:33 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. .





By that reasoning, why study anything at all?
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#256384 - 07/23/06 10:15 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: paradoxbox]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I think we run the risk here of going the Steven Segal route if we aren't careful. IMO, gun disarms have a slight to infinitesimal chance of working IF, the barrel is against your body. Beyond that you're fooling yourselves. Even then it's a risk. I don't know if anyone in their right mind comes up and sticks a gun in your back and says "This is a stick-up".

Most guys brandish a weapon for the purposes of intimidation. That usually means, they flash it and are a few feet away from you. Give them what they want and don't try to be Superman.

Not saying it isn't worth practicing disarms. But I would argue that if you've got a gun to your head, you screwed up somewhere along the way - long before the gun made its appearance. It is not making those mistakes we need to spend more time "practicing" and than gun disarms.

Steven Segal makes those things look really easy doesn't he?


-John

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#256385 - 07/23/06 11:33 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: globetrotter]
Xibalba Offline
Member

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA
Quote:

yeah, teaching people that somebody holding a gun on them is most likly not to use it is just plain dangerous, and will most probably lead to somebody getting killed.

I am as tough as the next fat old man. if somebody points a gun at me, I will do what he says. simple.




I agree with globetrotter's philosophy, to a point.

If the person pointing the gun to my head is asking for material possessions, he gets them. If, however, he directs me to "get in my car, come with me" etc., I will run (or fight if escape is not an option) if I can. Going to what some LEOs call "the second crime scene" is often a death sentence - the perp most likely wants to get you somewhere private where he can inflict greivous bodily harm or death. I would rather fight and possibly get shot in a more public venue where someone (hopefully) will hear the gunshot, find me, and call 911. I know my chances are still slim, but would be better than if I were to get shot at the perp's cabin in the woods.

And, I should be transparent, that I do NOT train weapon disarms - especially gun disarms. My kali experience taught me that weapon disarms are difficult to do effectively, so I would rather run when faced with a weapon (if at all possible).

Peace,
Mike

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#256386 - 07/23/06 05:06 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: kusojiji]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Quote:

Quote:

the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. .





By that reasoning, why study anything at all?




Specifically because you aren't going to need to disarm a trained gun user? If you're having to do that, then you're probably the criminal, and you deserve whatever you get for what you did to get into the situation you're in.

Take a trip over to thefiringline.com forums and see what they think about running from a man holding a gun at you within disarmament range. It's really a losing proposition. You're going to get shot in the back until you are dead, there's no doubt about it.

No one said you have do be unarmed to perform a disarm either. I know that many people here carry knives and guns when they're out and about. There's nothing stopping a person from simply waiting for the right moment then shooting their attacker, or sticking a knife through the base of his skull, or whatever. Disarms are mostly about timing and less about technical skill, though both are important. There's no reason to treat it as the stuff of movies when disarms can be and have been performed in the past in real life scenarios. If you get a chance to disarm, then take it, if you don't, then don't. There's no otherworldy mysticism about the whole thing.


A quick thought, one might consider all the training an LEO does in weapon retention to be disarmament training. I know I've seen a number of gun disarms where the scenario is the LEO has lost his firearm and needs to disarm the perp to get it back quickly. I think stuff like that is pretty routine for most departments is it not? Why bother training for it if it can't be done? It can be done and it just takes training and the right situation.

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#256387 - 07/24/06 08:39 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Xibalba]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Quote:

Quote:

yeah, teaching people that somebody holding a gun on them is most likly not to use it is just plain dangerous, and will most probably lead to somebody getting killed.

I am as tough as the next fat old man. if somebody points a gun at me, I will do what he says. simple.




I agree with globetrotter's philosophy, to a point.

If the person pointing the gun to my head is asking for material possessions, he gets them. If, however, he directs me to "get in my car, come with me" etc., I will run (or fight if escape is not an option) if I can. Going to what some LEOs call "the second crime scene" is often a death sentence - the perp most likely wants to get you somewhere private where he can inflict greivous bodily harm or death. I would rather fight and possibly get shot in a more public venue where someone (hopefully) will hear the gunshot, find me, and call 911. I know my chances are still slim, but would be better than if I were to get shot at the perp's cabin in the woods.

And, I should be transparent, that I do NOT train weapon disarms - especially gun disarms. My kali experience taught me that weapon disarms are difficult to do effectively, so I would rather run when faced with a weapon (if at all possible).

Peace,
Mike




actually, mike, I agree with you - that would be an exception, I wouldn't move to a second site, either.

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#256388 - 07/24/06 12:59 PM arguing with yourself [Re: paradoxbox]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering. .





By that reasoning, why study anything at all?




Specifically because you aren't going to need to disarm a trained gun user? If you're having to do that, then you're probably the criminal, and you deserve whatever you get for what you did to get into the situation you're in.

Take a trip over to thefiringline.com forums and see what they think about running from a man holding a gun at you within disarmament range. It's really a losing proposition. You're going to get shot in the back until you are dead, there's no doubt about it.

No one said you have do be unarmed to perform a disarm either. I know that many people here carry knives and guns when they're out and about. There's nothing stopping a person from simply waiting for the right moment then shooting their attacker, or sticking a knife through the base of his skull, or whatever. Disarms are mostly about timing and less about technical skill, though both are important. There's no reason to treat it as the stuff of movies when disarms can be and have been performed in the past in real life scenarios. If you get a chance to disarm, then take it, if you don't, then don't. There's no otherworldy mysticism about the whole thing.


A quick thought, one might consider all the training an LEO does in weapon retention to be disarmament training. I know I've seen a number of gun disarms where the scenario is the LEO has lost his firearm and needs to disarm the perp to get it back quickly. I think stuff like that is pretty routine for most departments is it not? Why bother training for it if it can't be done? It can be done and it just takes training and the right situation.




Don't tell me. YOU are the one who said, "the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering."

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#256389 - 07/24/06 03:04 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Very vague question, there are just too many senarios. But if you don't train as we have talked "alive vs. static" it would be best to hand over your wallet.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#256390 - 07/24/06 09:54 PM Re: arguing with yourself [Re: kusojiji]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Quote:


Don't tell me. YOU are the one who said, "the chances of your being attacked by someone actually trained in the use of knives or guns is so minimal it's just barely worth considering."




What are you even arguing about, do you know? Because I sure as hell don't I never changed anything I was saying, the point being you're not going to face trained gun users unless you're a criminal.

Typical criminals into taking random people hostage aren't usually trained with weapons. You train to defeat people who are not trained with weapons like the crackheads who might try to force you into a van and drive into the woods..

Someone trained with weapons will probably beat you unless you have a weapon of your own.

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