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#256361 - 05/22/06 02:44 AM You vs. a weapon
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I noticed some articles on the home page regarding weapon disarms,but not many of us train them enough to actually be effective,I know I don't.
What would be your best advice to someone who has a weapon pulled on them? It could be a gun or knife at any range.
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#256362 - 05/22/06 07:00 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Guns?? I don't even TRAIN gun disarms. I just don't see the point in doing so. For stuff like that to work, a person would almost have to be very close and stick the barrel of the gun right against you. Giving up your wallet or car would be preferable to being shot so, those would be my first options.

Knife is another story, and I still don't train that very much. When we do knife training, we use a program called "Red Zone" from Jerry Wetzel. It's good stuff and worth looking into.

Generally you have two basic scenarios with a knife; you either see it being brandished or your cut and THEN realize you've been hit with a knife. If you can see it before you're attacked, it's a simple matter of RUNNING AWAY......

If you've already been cut, it's a matter of controlling the blade arm while headbutting or throwing a knee and then running away. In training you'll often notice the knife coming free, but it's usually not by any sort of technical disarm. We see that as a bonus. It isn't something we would actively work for in a street encounter usually.




-John

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#256363 - 05/22/06 08:18 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
There are arts that do quite a bit of knife work generally (amongest other things) The best I have classes I went to for knife training were Silat, Kali, and Japanese Ju Jutsu.

Ju Jutsu Sensei told me if you are going to tackle someone with a knife, you almost certainly are going to get cut, and you have to be prepared for that. He told us to always take out their holding arm, anyway we could.

Jkogas had some good advice i.e. RUN! It is the best thing to do.

A guy in my class asked what was the best martial art for defending against a knife. My Ju jutsu sensei told him to save his money and buy a stab vest lol
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#256364 - 05/22/06 08:43 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
This is all just conjecture on my part, but I do have a lot of handgun experience.

To me, there is no good reason to fight a weapon if you don't have to (or fight ever - if you don't have to). So, my advise would be to quickly decide what the other person's intent is. As John said, if it is all about your wallet or money or car - let them have it. That is NOT the time to try out your stuff. Ramping up this situation to the conbat level is not smart. You have lot's to lose and little to gain.

On the other hand, if you have somehow gotten into a situatiuon where the other person's total intent is to cut you, or shoot you - you basically have nothing to gain by being passive and everythnig to lose. But I think that if you survive you should give yourself a good butt kicking for having gotten into it in the first place.

On the gun situation, WITH intent to shoot you, you almost need the gun in contact with your body to make any disarm work; that close. With a separation distance of just a few feet you are pretty much dead meat. Out just a little farther, though, say maybe 20' on, I'd start to feel a little better because I believe most people with a handgun are hoplessly bad shots.

Shooting is a learned skill just like MA. The number of people in the world that train with handguns is probably even less than those that learn MA. Odds pretty good that the other guy has poor shooting skills. Then the question there is: "Do you feel lucky?" If he's gonna shoot you no matter what, my guess is that running away, as erratically as possible, gives you a better than 50/50 chance of not getting hit... unless, of course, he can run faster than you.

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#256365 - 05/22/06 11:21 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Joss]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Joss wrote pretty much what I was going to write. Avoidance and distance are the two primary things to keep in mind when facing weapons.
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#256366 - 05/22/06 12:58 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Some time ago we spent many seasons working with weapons.
Basically - as most have said already. If you can get out of there do that.

Gun - considder yourself done for. Use your brain to try to neurtalise the situation and hope they will listen.

Knife - It depends a lot on distance and how good the person is with the knife. If you practice you have a chance but most likely you will get cut. Hopefully you have a thick coat on, this helps for slashes so watch for the straight lunge or stab. Aikido training helps to learn how to avoid and enter.

Clubs or long objects like a bo or jo - Your chances are better with these. If they have not studied the use of these weapons they can be fairly easy to read. Again aikido helps to learn how to enter against such weapons. Distance is key again. There are pleanty of ways to use his concentration on the weapon against him. If you can catch it anywhere in his movement your kicks have extra power, he will not want to let go of it and you can pull him in while kicking. Another thing to watch for is - he will need to go to a deeper chamber before swing at you, so you can enter as he is going to that chamber and keep his momentium going back while attacking with whatever you wish.

It is difficult to explain actual moves to use so I kept the examples simple.
If you have not worked with weapons you should. It is great fun. You will notice right away that you defend and attack with more speed and power than when both are open handed, so be careful and don't get carried away.

Naturally you would work with wooden or rubber knifes and your opponent would not strike hard with clubs, bo or jo, until you got used to dealing with the possabilities.

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#256367 - 05/22/06 04:23 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: Diga]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Don't know about the rest of you, but I find just *training* disarms scary. I mean, I'm not too bad - maybe just under half of the time I disarm. But, hell, half ain't gonna cut it As Joss and MattJ say, get the hell outta there, because every time you get 'cut' in class, that's proof that you're going to get cut in real life...
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#256368 - 05/22/06 05:12 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: TimBlack]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Another thing my Ju Jutsu sensei told me to say to someone who is close to you and has a weapon was " My budgie is at home, and she is getting married soon"

The idea is to totally baffle them, scramble their circuits for a couple of seconds. If they have a knife and are thinking "I'm gonna stab him, I'm gonna stab him, I'm gonna stab him.... wait, what he say about his budgie??!" It could give you vital seconds. Just some advice that was passed on to me.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#256369 - 05/23/06 04:37 AM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Guns: at close range, do exactly as your attacker asks and hope to live through it. longer range i have heard that running in erratic zig zags is your best bet, and dont use anything but a building as cover- bullets travel through more than the movies would have people believe. Interesting trivia: if you dive to 1.5 meters (5ft approx) in water, any bullet entering the water will break up before reaching you due to the rapid cooling the water creates.(I love mythbusters).

Knife: the only time I am likely to be put in a situation against a bladed or pointed weapon is at work. I would probably let the guy know I was not going to prevent him escaping, give him safe passage, but ensure I drank in every detail of his appearance to pass on to the police. If the knife wielder was aggressive, I wear kevlar enforced slash resistant gloves, and carry an ASP batton, so would, if i had no other choice, focus all my attention on controlling the blade, and knocking the crap out of the guy holding it (no dissarms, just grab the blade for dear life and subdue him with brute force) or, using the baton to maximise my 'fence', swing away to keep the guy at a distance till help came (the joys of radio contact).
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#256370 - 05/23/06 01:49 PM Re: You vs. a weapon [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
We train gun and knife with air soft guns and rubber to wooden then real knives blade tapped. Its eye opening if a guys just walks up shoots ya, theres very little that you can do against it. Theres somethings but its mostly luck. A lot of the stuff we do is not empty hand vs. weapon, its weapon on weapon. But we do EH vs. gun or knives to show two things the real odds and when you got no choice try to live.

If its just a robbery give him your stuff, even if you are armed. But if they wants to do harm or force you to go with him, its time for another option, action. I already know that a lot of you don't agree with this, just roll over and hope that he lets you out of the trunk tied and bound. I personally don't agree, and lets leave that as that.

But air soft guns shoot 350-400fps thats a far cry from 650-1500fps that a real gun fires even at that we get hit 75% of the time in the step up and shoot no question asked and about 45% get them talking and distracted. Its not good odds bare handed, but a knife or a gun your odds of survive increases 65-80% of time with element of surprise you can WIN. Don't mean you don't get shot or cut, but not vital.

Now you are throat cutting and head shooting, you are trying to live.

I totally agree the odds are not in your favor, and got the whelps (300-450fps plastic pellets hurts 2ft to 10 yards away)to show it.

Just my 2 cent. Students get at a certain level you want to practice other things to enhance your skills.


Edited by Neko456 (05/23/06 01:57 PM)
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