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#256021 - 11/06/06 06:20 AM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: wristtwister]
sure Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 13
When you're shown a new way of doing an established technique, while you have the opportunity to do it slowly and be conscious of the difference, it's often do-able. As sooon as it's speeded up a bit, then one tends to react automatically...and, of course, it's the established pattern that comes to the fore - despite one's best intentions.

Another observation is that some people don't have a good sense of their body position in space. They think they're doing exactly what the instructor demonstrated, can even tell you what they saw, but their body just isn't doing what their eyes saw - unless it's a completely new technique. Sometimes telling people to stop just as they're about to enter into the old pattern will make them realise their error; sometimes physically demonstrating what they're doing and re-demonstrating what they're supposed to be doing will make them realise they're actually in error.

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#256022 - 11/24/06 09:50 PM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: sure]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've been reading and re-reading some of the older posts that I missed during my wife's illness, and not to be contrary, but what this post poses is "if it works, why change it?" I agree that you can be shown different ways to do particular techniques, and they can be done easily at slow speeds and a little more difficultly at higher speeds... but it still poses the question... why fix it if it ain't broke? If it's a "better way", then you should change it... if it's just different, I'd file it away and use the method that is proved best. That's why there are different styles of everything... one method works best under one set of mechanical movements, and another works under a different philosophy or type of mechanical movement... and that doesn't mean either method is wrong, just different.

How you train has a lot with how difficult something is to do as well... if you do "Shotokan" or Shuri-type punching, "Goju" punching is extremely uncomfortable for you, and will prove "more difficult" than your "normal" movement, so when you go back to a "high speed" movement, which one do you think you'll use?

Cross training can be one of the most frustrating things you do in martial arts simply because you're usually trying to do things that are foreign to you. While practice doesn't make perfect, it does make "unfamiliar" more comfortable...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#256023 - 11/26/06 03:36 PM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: wristtwister]
belvedere Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
This topic to me is a no-brainer: practice the technique the way the instructor is demonstrating it - period. I have had the opportunity to practice with aikidoka from other "styles", if you will, that practiced techniques completely differently form the way they were shown. It is counter-productive and an insult to the dojo/instructor to ignore what is being shown.

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#256024 - 11/26/06 05:32 PM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: belvedere]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

It is counter-productive and an insult to the dojo/instructor to ignore what is being shown.




I can appreciate how this is a very common perception among Aikidokas- you're art is far more technique specific than others. I mean, my roundhouse technique has changed a lot over time in TKD. It started out like a traditional roundhouse, then developed into a more MT style roundhouse, however, never did my teacher take my change of technique as an insult to him. Indeed it would be wrong for him to do so- my personal body shape, mechanics etc. may make a certain technique more effective for me than others. If my instructor has my interests at heart, then he should be very happy for me to change a technique to something that is more effective for me.

If you do a technique a little differently, and it works, an instructor forcing you to change it seems petty in the least.

I saw Wristtwister's argument as more about people who do techniques incorrectly AND ineffectively, no matter how many times the instructor shows them. People that are happy to do a technique ineffectively are certainly in the wrong, and the instructor would be right to feel peeved.

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#256025 - 11/26/06 06:03 PM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: Supremor]
belvedere Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 40
I completely agree - every practitioner will "perform a technique in their own way", but a round house kick is a round house kick. The mechanics are the same, but one person may kick higher; one person might snap it around "Karate-style" while another might pop it "Kung Fu-style" - but it's still a round house kick.

In Aikido, (at least at my dojo) the instructor demonstrates a technique, and then the students practice the technique the way it was shown. It is true that there are many ways to perform the same Aikido technique, and none of them are necessarily "wrong", but the class is "expected" to practice the technique the way it was shown is what I was trying to say.

Of course it is not an insult to the instructor when I do not get my 6'2" frame as low to the ground during shihonage as he does. But I think it would be an insult if I practiced the technique the way I learned it at another dojo and turned it into some kind of over-the-shoulder arm-bar technique that was shown during instruction. (That actually happened to me in class one time. A lady from a SoCal dojo did that to me. It wasn't "wrong", nor was it ineffective, but it wasn't what we were supposed to be practicing). Just my opinion. I am not opposed to freelancing, playing around with techniques, or learning other styles - but there is a "time and a place for everything", and I think the thread-starter was referring to this type of situation.

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#256026 - 11/27/06 01:46 AM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: belvedere]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
That's a good point as well. Your physical abilities and restrictions might preclude you from doing a technique exactly as shown by a teacher, but you still give it your best effort.

I went to a seminar with a well-known instructor from Japan whose depth of movement in certain techniques was never going to happen with me. I couldn't even step and squat close to what he did in the techniques, but I did as much as I could, and picked up a great deal of information about how to make the skills work better (even though I couldn't make my body work that way at the time). I've seen a lot of martial artists over the years who could do things with their bodies that wouldn't happen with mine without surgery and extreme torture, but I still marveled at their movements.

What it did, was change my training regimen so that we did more deep stretching in order to get to the "mechanical position" that he taught us in the class. I still can't hit the level he could in those particular techniques, but I'm "better" at it from the experience... and that's always the goal of teaching... expanding the art and making the students better at it.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#256027 - 11/27/06 09:23 AM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: wristtwister]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Just my standard bellyache:
How can you "practice what you know" when all you are shown are variations? This implies you never do "know" anything so how can you practice it?

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#256028 - 11/27/06 08:54 PM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: iaibear]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The point is, that all these "variations" aren't what you should really be focusing on. The point is, to look below the surface level technique and to discover the essence of what it is that you are practising.

Whether that be karate, jujitsu, or aikido...

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#256029 - 11/27/06 10:24 PM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Seldom, if ever, is a technique done exactly the same way 2 times. The essence of the technique is there, such as the principle of sankyo or nikkyo, but each attack is of itself different, and your reception of the attack is a matter of different timing, balance, and centering.

Almost every technique I do starts with a nikkyo "bite" on the wrist, and then progresses to whatever I'm doing unless it's an irimi technique, and I doubt if you'll ever see it in a "traditional" class... but I like to use that particular method of moving people "in my direction"... so think of every technique as "how would I like to get there?" You'd be surprised how easy things are when everything starts in the same place...

I know what you're saying, but the principle of any technique is the same regardless of what "hand jive" is used to make the uke jump.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#256030 - 11/27/06 10:28 PM Re: Practice what you know, or what's being taught [Re: eyrie]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I didnt read all the replies but here is my thoughts on the initial few posts anyways. I think at some point in everyones training, there comes a time in which what you are doing finally becomes a part of you and who you are. Whether thats a good thing or not is debatable, but it happens. Some people will keep certain techniques for life, while others will spend a lifetime looking for certain techniques. The key is to find what works best for you, INDIVIDUALY, and apply that. End the end the art is about the individuals needs, if it is to be successful. Since that is the case, non of us do things the same, and its unrealistic to think that we would, or even should.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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