Yes...but knowing/understanding isn't enough. A mind body connection has to be made...and then worked on. It sucks understanding...but not be able to do.

well...it might dawn on me and click one day what you are talking about. and then theres the possibility it won't ever.

but I did resurrect this thread for a reason. I've been taking a look at how gong li exercises relate to Sanchin. I couldn't relate it until I did two things: do Sanchin fast, and do gong li slow.

since you have a better way with words about this stuff, I'll let you guess what dawned on me after doing that...

harlan, it would equally suck knowing you've been physically working on things directly related but can't conceptualize them.

I suspect most people who throw out it's terms casually in posts in the past don't enter into these conversations because these are concepts and abilities that really are humbling. I feel like a moron not knowing this stuff...but I get a nugget every once in a while, and it futher peaks my interest....meanwhile, I just train and hopefully let my body do the learning. I joke about it or sometimes get testy, but it isn't easy (for me), and it's even harder to talk about.

the whole subject makes me feel like a white belt...and I like that feeling.

Well, I wouldn't know what dawned on you.... I can't read minds... yet. You know, part of the reason of having a forum is to discuss things. It's not a one-way street.

ok, I'll try. first, I didn't give the whole scenario. for that I have to go off topic a bit.

I suspect that alot of what a body learns at a very deep level (particularly as to this subject) happens when we are fatigued. we have to get those big muscles worked out in order to get to the micro ones...the ones that keep us going when it's hard to lift an arm. but it's important which exercises we do. something I never really cared about in the past. we worked out and worked out hard. we'd go thru kata in all different ways, holding stances forever, weights in our hands, slow with tension, etc. and maybe to an unconscious extent, my body was learning some of these topic principles...

Even now, I don't know for sure which training is best in terms of this thread topic, so I base what I do at home on faith...namely Gong li and Sanchin. for that kind of workout (which, I admittedly don't do enough...once a week at most on my own, not including regular class and not including just light workouts on the side now and then), it really is difficult to push myself to a limit that is actually a benefit to the physical learning I'm trying to get at. (not to mention how easy it is to make excuses that it sucks working out in the basement for any length of time with low ceiling, stone walls with spiders and millapedes crawling around).

but anyway, despite my lack of intensity-depth needed to really get this, I do have hints of it come now and then. it's fleeting, and if I don't force myself to be aware of it, I miss it and it vaporizes into no words, but remains as just an impression.

just understand that and realize if I even try to put it into words something I can't verbalize well...it will just come out sounding trivial.

which may be among the other reasons more people don't even try to talk about it.

I'll read your posts, but it seems I probably brought this up prematurely and need to just work on it more. thanks for the insights and thoughts eyrie, harlan and bpalm.

There's an old saying that training to the point beyond exhaustion is where the point of this training becomes apparent - effortless power.

Once you understand the principles, does it matter what or how the exercises are done? Or what variations?

I do recall dragging my butt to class after being up for 48 hours straight. I dogged it through bo practice...I was so exhausted I didn't care. A funny remark floated past me:

'You're doing really well today.'

That whole concept of relaxing dawned on me then.

PS. Nothing like seeing Sanchin done, full out, using Gong Li. It's all there. Then, there is Tensho...

There's "relaxed" and then there's "relaxed".

What does "relax" mean?

in the new issue of CFA, there is an article on boxer Jack Dempsey. His concepts run parallel to this discussion but without the foreign terms and clouded language.

Chinese word: 'song'

misnomer literal translation: 'relaxed'.

more accurate English equvalent of 'song': "a balanced state which is neither slack nor tense."

Jack Dempsey on power generation: "teeter in position until you feel balanced and comfortable. Be relaxed everywhere as you teeter. Now, when you feel comfortable and relaxed..."

He didn't need to explain it in terms of chi flow. just simple direct language creating a real-world and atainable mental image.

since we don't have mental images of foreign words, without careful scrutany, our imagination and spiritual beleifs starts filling in the blanks of what we imagine things to be. It doesn't need to be that way by adding layers of abstraction.

eyrie,bpalm, harlan - I'm not criticizing you...your language is pretty direct without too much hocus pocus or fancy terms, and I appreciate it. I'm just reminding all of us of occam's razor.

I never saw a Dempsey fight, and have to defer to the real MA'ists here...but I think this is where I switch out. If the terminology from any culture only refers to dynamics...then it is lacking.