FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 17 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
BUJU, Pilsungkarate, ALF, old1, Leonar
22928 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ronin1966 3
futsaowingchun 2
ergees 2
GojuRyuboy13 2
swordy 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Forum Stats
22928 Members
36 Forums
35584 Topics
432513 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 17 1 2 3 ... 16 17 >
Topic Options
#254957 - 05/17/06 10:49 AM Neigong
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm interested in learning more about this training method(s) ...what info can you share, other than the standard resources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A8ig%C5%8Dng

which are good starting points to learning more about it, but don't mention the physical training methods...only the inner/spiritual. but I'd like to hear your ideas on this.

I'm interested more in nŤi jžn and not so much fa jžn applications.

aka...'soft' and 'short' power generation/ body mechanics drills/exercises.

thanks,
-Ed

Top
#254958 - 05/18/06 06:39 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
was it a dumb question? or should this be moved to 'internal arts'?

Top
#254959 - 05/18/06 09:14 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
ShaolinNinja Offline
hates silicone bubishi

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 301
Loc: Ireland
It's not a stupid question, just a bit vague. What do you want to know? Neigong routines for physical conditioning?

In my experience, neigong is mostly used to prepare the mind before training - get rid of superfluous thoughts, raise body awareness and awareness of breathing and posture. It's not used for physical conditioning in my training.

Top
#254960 - 05/18/06 09:23 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
This should definitely be in the Internal Arts forum.

You might want to check out the standing post exercises:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang

Lam Kam Chuen's "Way of Power" is a good starting point for these exercises. But a lot of the "good stuff" is left out, so the intent of exercises are relegated to health maintenance and promotion.

The other slightly more in depth reference you might also want to check out is Liang Shou-Yu's "Qigong Empowerment". The martial application section of the book has some good pointers, but again, some "good stuff" is left out.

However, I think there is enough principle related material in both books, that if you know the "keys", it would be quite easy to make the connections.

All the best.

Top
#254961 - 05/18/06 10:16 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
You have been doing "neigong" for years and perhaps do not know or recognise it -- its Sanchin & Tensho.

The 'problem' is, it was and perhaps still is, taught as a pure physical conditioning routine with combat applications grafted on, and so the "internal" ('neigong') aspects got lost along the way.


When doing it, reduce your tension by half and instead of concentrating on the breath coming out of your mouth, internalise your thoughts and focus on your internal organs on the in-breath and imagine the breath coming out of your skin on the out-breath.

After some practice, you should notice that your body felt as if it 'shrinks' a bit on the in-breath and 'expands' on the out-breath. The 'shrinkage' will give you an awareness of your muscles squeezing on the bones. After more practice, you can hold the tension with any combat-body-configuration and still feel no strain whatsoever and to the on-looker, no apparent tension. So now you can truly fight with Sanchin.

And here is one little 'thing' you may wish to consider -- spend 5-10 minutes (whether sitting or standing) and just think or concentrate on your finger tips and while keeping that concentration, do the Tensho kata. When you are better, go up to the palm and eventually the whole body. At this stage, you will see Tensho and Sanchin in a whole new 'light' and then go back to read that little piece in Wikipedia again or any of those books Eyrie recommended. Reading them before will be guite meaningless to you.

Call me again in a couple of years' time. Meanwhile

Perhaps a little clearing up on "neigong" and "chigong"

About 40-50 years ago, the term neigong was more commonly used than chigong because the majority of practitioners were martial artists; neigong being internal training for martial arts application. Later as MA itself became less wide spread due to the influence of Western science and technology, people began to concentrate on the health by-product aspects of neigong and since it merely develops the chi without any martial arts application, chigong was used to distinguished it.

The common denominator is of course the development of the awareness of the dynamics chi plays in the body's processes; the point of divergence comes when the martial artists use this awareness for bone, tendon and muscle development and all these are then combined into one coherent practice when doing the kata; in your case the Seisan kata. The 'secret' is in the kata?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#254962 - 05/19/06 12:46 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Sorry Ed, I hesitated to mention the 2 kata BP mentioned...

Honestly, if you never knew what you're meant to be training, it is quite likely that you never trained it correctly in the first place and any side benefits you may have experienced have been quite accidental.

There are many ways to practice "neigong" (lit. internal work). Standing, kata/forms, ukemi, shiko (sumo stamping), spear thrusting, bokken cutting, yoga (done correctly)... and even makiwara - it's simply one of those "This is my preferred way to do it" things.

"Relaxing" is one of the keys. "Breathing" is another key. There are more little keys, and of course a LOT of plain old boring WORK.

The big question of course is WHAT you are meant to be training. "How" to do it is in the methodology. And the different methods are merely variations of the same core principles.

Top
#254963 - 05/19/06 01:18 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I want to frame this next question right...I'm going to work on the question over the next couple of days. thanks for your thoughts so far...keep an eye on this thread - I think it will develop into a good conversation.

Top
#254964 - 05/19/06 10:40 AM Re: Neigong [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You have to have eyes to see it, Ed.

Quote:

You have been doing "neigong" for years and perhaps do not know or recognise it -- its Sanchin & Tensho.



Top
#254965 - 05/19/06 11:56 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I had a thought out question I was developing with terms, jargon, fairly complex and obscure foreign concepts, etc... and after relating it to back my objectives, it gradually transformed back into a simple question. weird.

btw, thank-you for the replies thus far. before I ask the 'simple' question, this is how I view ki/chi:

These are my own words and concepts, so maybe I use ways of writing about this that are goofy.

I beleive ki is synergy ...not energy. Synergy in the combined effect of:
* center of gravity manipulation. (rooting/shifting)
---- balance in relation to self, ground and opponent.

* muscle group timing. (kime/focus, loose until impact)
---- This includes breathing, and thought/emotion rythyms.

* 3-dimensional space/time (positioning)
----- positioning relative to opponent in real-time.

This is ki/chi to me. I can see how thinking of all of these things in real time would be much easier to imagine it as 'energy'...but I think that's simply a shortcut concept and runs risk of being misinterpreted if the components aren't defined. I believe ki is non-linear...and therefore the shortest distance in moving ki between A to B is a curved path.

These ways of thinking about ki may have less depth than what you've been exposed to, but it fits into Goju principles nicely...now, if only I could DO it smoother.

which leads me to my question:


What solo drills can I work on to help me remove brute force intent?

Top
#254966 - 05/20/06 12:10 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
after writing that, I googled a combo of terms I chose to use and came up with here:
http://www.shugenkai.com/ki.html

Interesting.

seems I fall into the 'pragmatic', 'rational skeptic' category of the way I think of ki. lol no real surprize there for a Mr. Roboto.

Top
#254967 - 05/20/06 03:27 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Ed,
I liked the synergy - energy thing but you need the synergy to let the energy travel unrestricted to the point of focus.
In sanchin the focus is at the end of a certain technique (punch or block). I was thaught that even in sanchin you relax and tense. The tensho is more obvious as the movements are more fluid. All energy is harvested in the tanden (=source of power) and needs to be released through the contact points of the chosen technique (fists/palm/fingers/foot). This building and releasing of energy needs correct breathing, correct mindset, correct posture (body). Ki enbodies this attitude (breathing/mindset,intent/body,posture) and manifests eventually in fa jing, explosive power, when realeased in technique.
About short range punch and power, it is all in relaxing and tensing at the right moment. It starts from the hip and needs maximum tensing at point of contact. The synergy needs to adapt a bit to have correct enery release.(try it with a vertical fist or keiko-ken fist, it's easier I think).
About the metaphysical, I am sceptic too but after sanchin training I feel lighter, sometimes tingling a bit. I can stretch deeper and muscles feel more relaxed.
Once I had a strange thing happen during a heavy sparring session (I wanted to hurt him) where I projected the guy without touching him. Never was able to redo it, maybe it was a coincidence of unknowns and my and his perception of the circumstance was not correct, did feel strange though.
The difference in power release between shorin end shorei I think is in the locking of the lower body. Shorei systems lock themselves into the sanchin dachi even after the power release. The shorin systems will not and release immediatly after delivering the technique. This is however not always the case for shorei as in the more advanced kata there are natural transitions from sanchin to heiko dachi when advancing.

Top
#254968 - 05/20/06 06:10 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, Ed... in short... no...

Ki/qi/prana is an umbrella term to describe a number of phenomena. Ki is not the phenomena itself, but the manifestation of such phenomena can be indicative of the presence of ki.

The ki you are specifically referring to has to do with the fascia and connective tissue where it originates. It's the only one we're really interested in from a martial perspective.

So what we're training in neigong (again, lit. INTERNAL WORK) is the fascia, tendons, connective tissue and how they attach to the skeletal structure. Forget about "ki" for the moment - it's a side benefit of the training as well as a method of training vis-a-vis "qi gong" or "kiko". I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves for the moment.

Imagine you have a sheath of rawhide covering your bones all over your body, under your skin. Essentially that's what the fascia is. Think of it like a "suit" you're wearing under your skin and over the bones, and the "external" muscles that you're already used to using lies over that suit.

Basically, that's what meant by "internal". So now we know what we're meant to be training, the obvious question is not "How do we train it?", but rather "What are the basic principles?".

Recall that the "how" is merely variations of the same principles... vis-a-vis kata, ukemi, yoga, standing etc. etc. etc.

Top
#254969 - 05/20/06 08:08 AM Re: Neigong [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
CVV - The Goju/Shorei I'm working on doesn't have any notion of locking (except maybe for the split second of impact or transmition). the 'power release' as you refer it, is also used to charge the next movement - not dissipate to the ground.
As far as non-touch injury, I've done it sparring but it was explainable - I moved barely out of the way of a fully committed attack, and the opponent hyperextended his elbow. I didn't make contact yet he got hurt. Thats probably different than you mean. I kindof don't want to go there. anomolies don't interest me yet, I want to concentrate on the reproducable meat and potatoes.

eyrie - thats the logic path I followed when wording my question, and it led me to chi. since the development of nei jin seems to be inclusive of all the things described by chi. and neigong gets you there.
my western mind seems to break things down into separate components, work each component individually(basics), then trying to blend them(advanced). I think neigong describes training that blend, but since it's from a different starting point, it hard to grasp. if we try to break it down it disappears and looses it's 'form'.

but now I'm getting bogged down in concepts, which I'm trying not to do.

so I'll back up like you suggest and lets talk principles of nei jin. (not fa jing). btw, to anyone reading...make sure you don't make the same mistake I did while reading...'jin'(power) is not the same as 'jing'(essence).

Top
#254970 - 05/20/06 08:40 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Neijin! Yeees! Now you're getting somewhere!

It's difficult to talk about the various components individually. But it can be done. The trick is defining where the starting point is. I think if you think of the starting point as the development of this musculo-fascial/ musculo-tendinous "suit", it will start to make sense.

As for some of the principles, relaxation and breathing have already been mentioned. Would you like to hazard a guess at others???

Top
#254971 - 05/20/06 01:19 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lets focus on just that for a sec. relaxation and breathing. I suppose it could be expanded into a whole field unto itself. 'behavioural kinesiology' I believe is the fancy term of study. I see it no more than a combination of body mechanic alignment as it relates to psychology/emotion responses. some talk about it in terms of energy meridians. I'll get lost if the conversation turns to meridians...bear with me....

so an extreme example is as an untrained person might 'freeze' and experience shortness of breath and collapsed chest, tense muscles, etc as a result of an incoming attack and natural response to threat/fear.
First step is in training to let go of that. The very first steps of Sanchin practice, beyond committing the sequence of movements to memory, is learning timed breathing to controled body dynamic. half-speed slows down and helps the student to get the timing right which later may be sped up. Sanchin is the only structured tool I know for doing this.
I'm only a recent observer of Aikido. From watching Aikido class (I've been watching about 1 class a week) and how it is taught, it appears the breathing and relaxation is timed with actual drill practice, slow speed and then gradually sped up. so the learning of this is simultaneous and concurrent to any given application/2-man drill. Throughout the class, I notice frequent corrections and reminders to the students when to inhale/exhale, center/lower, flow/relax etc. I was struck by how familiar these breathing and relaxing tips sounded.

Top
#254972 - 05/20/06 06:49 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
OK, you're talking about somatics, which is an entire field of study in itself. These include the works of Feldenkrais, Alexander and Rolf (and others).

The mind-body connection and its effect on emotions, psyche and the autonomic nervous system is well documented - something the ancient Chinese already knew about at least 5000 years earlier.

I'm not going to delve much into meridians, suffice to say that these were initially thought to be channels (like a tube) in the musculo-fascia structures.

I think it's much simpler than that.

For the moment, let's focus on relaxing and breathing. When you "relax", what are you relaxing? When you breath, what are you working on?

Both have to do with the "suit" we're talking about. ButterflyPalm mentioned "shrinkage" - think of it as contracting the suit. When you relax, you're stretching the suit. (Think yoga!). Same thing when you use the breath. Except you're using the breath to pressurize the suit.

IOW, you're using these to EXERCISE the suit.

Forget about movement and timing (in relation to paired exercises) for now. Movement and paired training is merely an application of using the suit in various ways.

For the moment, focus on the suit and what happens when you stretch and contract it and when you pressurize it.

There's other stuff related to how to use the suit to generate power, store power and release power, but there's something else that must happen first.

Top
#254973 - 05/21/06 09:25 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Interesting topic thus far folks!

I do several different kinds of neigong practices. Each of the exercises can be done either with a fierce/fajing intent, or they can be done with a lighter intent so that you are primarily focused on listening to the body and its internal reaction to structural changes in the body.
Either way, the exercises are primarily focused on the usage of the mind. IMO - the mind is one of the most important aspects of neigong training. The mind must be brought into the body in order to 'feel' what is happening.
I think that it is very helpful to have stand alone exercises to focus on rather than trying to meditate the mind deeper into the body while trying to move through an entire form with the same mind set.
If I begin with a set group of movements and use my neigong practice then I can later expand this to other ranges of motion and eventually work towards connecting all the pieces to they harmonize the body and maximum power is acheived.
I do the neigong training in both martial and health/spiritual oriented ways. I am working to progress to a point where I can have both of these converge.
When doing things with a martial intent, I still carry the same principle, however, my mind is different. There is a certain amount of intensity or fierceness that I apply to the training.
When doing the training for health it is more of a relaxed qigong type of training.
I find both of these to be quite energizing, but the energies feel distinctly different.

Just my $0.02...
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#254974 - 05/21/06 01:24 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
First thing sanchin teaches is to have tension in the ge-tanden (point below the navel, where you cough). Then it teaches you how to keep tension while breathing in and out and how to relax/tense in coordination with breathing in/out and performing technique. THis tension in the getanden is the most basic thing for karate I think and I guess for all forms of MA.Without it technique will have no power. When you have awaerness of this you can go further with the mind. The mind will guide the intent, at first concious later unconcious.
(at first only mind knows and we need to train to let the body know), but at that point you feel when it's wrong so you can correct.
Ed, your analogie towards untrained and freezing up might be correct. At least when you always have a reserve in the getanden, even while breathing in, you can immediatly react and move/block/counter/whatever breathing out and having power to do it. This is in my opinion basic. You can disrupt this by attacking the body and taking their breath away. In that sense, iron body refers to the state where you can take punishment without being affected. All contact related exercise (sport or for real) have this notion and it is inherent to the sanchin training.
Butterflypalm said to imigine breathing thru the skin, I will try this. Up till now, I only imagined chi flowing into the getanden while breathing in and then chi flowing to the point of contact while breathing out. I imagined going in thru the nose into the getanden and going out through the technique while breathing out.

Top
#254975 - 05/21/06 02:37 PM Re: Neigong [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think I'm following the concepts so far. not to rush anything, but what's next? discussing intent?

from how I see it, intent is commitment, confidence, strategy and focus/concentration. when combined with a relaxed and sychronized 'suit', it becomes conceptually, a projection of will. please don't talk in terms of 'no touch' this or that or mind bending spoons etc. What I think of is more like how atheletes describe as being 'in the zone'.

as far as I know, the only drills for developing this is years of doing.

Top
#254976 - 05/21/06 04:50 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I see different types of intent. When training solo I intent maximum power release. When with partner sometimes speed & timing, sometimes how to overcome distance.
In partner drills they are all concious. In free fight they get unconcious and then your in the zone as you call it.
But in real conflict, there should be no concious thaught anymore. Not in the fights I was in and 'won'. In the ones I lost, there was hesitation, the mind was interfearing with doubt and I had trouble overcoming distance or what angle to chose or what technique to use.
Once the body is trained and the intent is clear, you are a formidable opponent. By training you get confidence in yourselve and know and accept your limitations.
In this concept of neigong, the intent of the technique should be clear and as such executed. The sanchin seiken zuki or nukite technique should be intented to penetrate thru the point of contact. The blocks should break arms. This should be executed in a seemingly effortless and fluid way. The tensho is to balance again and the intent is to cool down and restore energy levels. Sometimes I turn it around and train tensho with martial intent and sanchin with 'restore energy levels' intent.

Top
#254977 - 05/21/06 08:57 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Nope. Forget intent for the moment. Intent (and all the mental visualization stuff) is part of the exercise and also what you're training.

The "something else" that must happen first, and which you already alluded to is using the whole "suit". How do we do that?

In a word...connection.

Basically, the focus of the exercise is to coordinate parts of your body so that the suit is working as a whole unit, supported from the spine, which is strung like a string of pearls from the crown to the coccyx.

The other thing which must happen is using the ground reaction force and accessing the force through the body to various places - the hands being a good place to start.

So.... the foot bone is connected to the ankle bone is connected to the knee bone, yada yada yada... you get the picture.

If you can't get this part, don't jump ahead just yet.

Top
#254978 - 05/21/06 10:13 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you just described 'structual body mechanics' with alot more than 3 words. or did I miss something?

Top
#254979 - 05/21/06 10:32 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Apparently, there's structural mechanics and there's structural mechanics. Which one are you referring to?

I'm talking about the first stage of connecting feet to hands using the "suit".

There's the next stage (of "ki black magic") where you bypass the connections altogether and jump the "short-cut" from feet to hands or center to hands.

Top
#254980 - 05/21/06 10:42 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Can I ask a noob question, for clarification? The basic level is learning to move muscle/bone/fascia/ligaments in a connected way to deliver force, and the advanced level is when the connectivity is so developed that one 'sees' the energy being moved?

Top
#254981 - 05/21/06 11:01 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Oh, and what comes from the ground, should work in reverse too.

Here's a little experiment to see if you're using "external" muscle and structure, or if you're using "internal" redirection of forces.

Have someone push you on the chest. Imagine that where their hand is placed, is your shoulder, and their shoulder is your hand. Have them push you and see if you can redirect the push to the ground. They should feel like they're pushing against the ground.

Top
#254982 - 05/21/06 11:10 PM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

The basic level is learning to move muscle/bone/fascia/ligaments in a connected way to deliver force, and the advanced level is when the connectivity is so developed that one 'sees' the energy being moved?




You mean "feel"?

Forget about "energy"... from a martial application perspective, the conversion of "energy" into "work" (i.e. force) is easier to talk about.

Going back to the "suit" idea. Think of it as a rubber band. It can stretch and contract, thereby converting potential (elastic) energy into kinetic energy. It's the basics of "store and release".

The key is how the suit is wound and unwound.

Top
#254983 - 05/22/06 12:12 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
energy conservation. nothing is lost, it's just transferred. the release powers the restore and vice-versa. thats part of what I consider body mechanics. structual mechanics is what I consider to be transmission....which is the point between the release and restore.

so far we are well within the realm of physics. it's only the concepts which are starting to sound like jedi mind tricks.

imagining to redirect pressure on my chest isn't going to do anything, unless I slightly redirect the natural force vectors of my body structure. I can do that 2 ways, either yeild to the force exerted on me, or deflect that force....depending on which way I chose to pivot my axis.

ok, so I've got my elasti-respitory-exto-suit on, I understand the conservation of energy and redirecting/yeilding principles....now what?

Top
#254984 - 05/22/06 12:33 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
wait a sec...although I understand the concepts of redirection and yeilding, I want to come back to those later and talk about specific drills to work on to making it smoother. most of my previous practice has been sharp angular deflecting with force. which is why my drill partners were going home with bruises on their arms...which was the indisputable proof I was doing it wrong. One of the areas I am currently working on is the method of 'soft' yeilding and redirection. timing is not the problem for me, it's mostly in rotating my core WITH the guard....seems simple, and it is, but I've been doing counter-rotation hip stuff for years (this also works the elastic-conservation principle, but just in a different way - more like as a tourquing force). works well when young and quick and has good power gen, but I think where this thread is leading is more efficient ways to do the same thing....which is what my current Goju Sensei has been showing - it's a challenge to communicate it into words and so far in this thread, it's fun trying...

Top
#254985 - 05/22/06 12:36 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yeah elasto-boy... that's redirect the push without moving your feet, shifting your body angle, or bracing, bucko!

Try it. I bet you your 11 y/o could push you over....;)

Oh, we're well within the realms of physics (aka "natural laws").... no "magic" or mysticism here... (we'll talk about Jedi mind tricks later...)

Top
#254986 - 05/22/06 12:56 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
...but I'm allowed to bend knees and pivot core slightly right? if not, I should pause the topic there for a while until you come back down to earth, aikijedi-master.

Top
#254987 - 05/22/06 01:05 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, Ed, you asked how this is done, and I'm telling you...

Sure you can bend the knees and pivot your core, but that would be "cheating" wouldn't it? If it were that easy, there'd be Jedi masters from Yoda to Skywalker

Stand with feet shoulder width apart - not in forward/bow stance. See if you can use the "suit" to distribute the load. Don't bend at the knees, don't pivot your waist.

You might want to ask your 11 y/o to go gently at first....

I'm not saying that this stuff will give you Jedi-like skillz - it won't. It's just a different way of moving and doing things. A different way of using "strength". Think of it as giving you something to make you a better "labourer".

Otherwise, we might as well give up and go lift weights or something.


Edited by eyrie (05/22/06 01:32 AM)

Top
#254988 - 05/22/06 01:32 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

It's just a different way of moving and doing things.



ah-ha! so there IS movement. let's see, taking away from the list of the joints that I'm not allowed to move...I think that leaves the ankles and neck. so, do I go up on my tip-toes and blow wind down on the hand pushing against my chest? you aren't making sense.

the only other way I can think of is yeilding slightly back like a lean and then quickly forward. that would deflect the push to downward in this exercise. talk to me in terms of force vectors...thats all this really is. wait...thats it. you mean to use the vectors from the suit itself like a bunch on mini fajing's doing a 1mm punch. lol Is that all it is? like an intentional and focused twitch? hmmm...isn't this thread getting dangerously close to revieling secrets?

Top
#254989 - 05/22/06 03:28 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Secrets? There are no secrets...

The caeveat is, of course, don't try jumping ahead of yourself.

Obviously, it's a way of learning to move and duh... maybe have some application for fighting. However, this is a STATIC exercise.

So for this STATIC exercise, there is no overt movement - more like a series of micro-adjustments in your body's "anti-gravity" mechanism.

Seriously, if you can do this experiment (which is a variant of the "unbendable arm" trick)... you'll understand what I mean. Then we can move on to the other stuff.

Top
#254990 - 05/22/06 07:28 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol. the unbendable arm trick, unmovable body, etc. it's not a question of doing it...it's a question of do I care to use parlour tricks as a basis of fighting technique. there's also this one of making a knife disappear...look, nothing up my sleeve.

you are delving into solidly debunked demonstrations eyrie. read the latest issue of classical fighting arts magazine.

Top
#254991 - 05/22/06 07:56 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, they are parlour tricks, but they also demonstrate core internal skills.

If you can't do these "correctly", then none of the rest makes sense.

I guess the question you are asking is how do these relate to fighting techniques...?

Well, these things are designed to develop specific body skills. And these skills form the basis of all fighting techniques.

As to whether these have been "debunked".... hmmm.... I guess the few people who do possess these skills got it wrong then?


Top
#254992 - 05/22/06 08:17 AM Re: Neigong [Re: CVV]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Butterflypalm said to imigine breathing thru the skin, I will try this.




...and when you can do this any time, anywhere, standing or lying down and more importantly while doing any kata, you will truly understand why it is called the 'chi' ('breath') in the first place; because that is exactly what it feels like when "it" leaves the body thru' the skin as well as the mouth or nose. This is only the very beginning; just having put on Eyrie's "suit"

What has all this got to do with internal MA?

The breath is the only mechanical system that the mind can CONSCIOUSLY access the internal structures of the body. Without this acute internal awareness (as Harlan puts it -- 'see' the structural connectivity) all the point and talk about "body structure / mechanics / alignment / grounding" will never be perfectly understood as it is something that cannot be physically understood by mere verbal intellectualising. It is like trying to understand how a computer works (coincidentally also 'hard & soft') by merely looking at and intellectualising on the shinny outer plastic covering.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#254993 - 05/22/06 08:26 AM Re: Neigong [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'See' it. Pull out one of those anatomy books...the ones where the body systems are shown in layers on clear plastic (bone/muscle/veins/nerves). Peel off the skin, imagine the nervous system as white/activated when force is being moved through structure.

That is what I mean by 'see'.

Top
#254994 - 05/22/06 08:45 AM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
In the internal MA, you 'see' by using the mind to consciously direct the 'chi', hence the old MA saying, 'the mind arrives, chi arrives' and that's why some people say, in another thread, the chi travels at the speed of thought.

The question is always HOW do you train the mind to CONSCIOUSLY BE AWARE OF AND DIRECT the chi and using it as a "software" tool to acquire the holy grail of internal structural connectivity in a MA context?

You have to start with neigong / chigong training; there is just no other way that I know of.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#254995 - 05/22/06 08:46 AM Re: Neigong [Re: ButterflyPalm]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And when you can access the internal structure at will, you can do this stuff breathing in, out, or simply holding your breath.

Top
#254996 - 05/22/06 08:48 AM Re: Neigong [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'Where thought goes, energy flows' is an interpretation of that. But it is better with no-thought...where awareness is placed.

Top
#254997 - 05/22/06 09:00 AM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Yes, when mind and body is ONE -- true, ultimate CONNECTIVITY!

...and dare I say it -- the one thing that brings it all together?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#254998 - 05/22/06 09:25 AM Re: Neigong [Re: ButterflyPalm]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
I'll be off-line for a couple of days and will respond in due time to any queries.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#254999 - 05/22/06 09:56 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
arm bend trick de-mystified:
http://ofinterest.net/ua/

if we are going to speak in terms of tricks, we might be wasting our time. for example, the arm bend trick only works by first having the person concentrate on the wrong muscles. then by having them concentrate on something else and relax (ie: imagining a longer arm), they subsconsciencely are using the triceps to resist the force.

so having people concentrate on breathing, imagining this and that, flowing chi, bla bla bla ...instead of just saying which muscle group is at work, is deceiving, annoying and couter-productive to the conversation - since: 1. I'm not a wide-eyed noob and WILL know when I'm being tricked. and 2. makes the whole notion of a 'ki energy' look more like bunk.

overveiw of what we are doing to bring this back down to earth:
there is an attack coming in (for the sake of simplicity lets say a single attack)...either move out of the way or intercept/deflect the attack with a part of the physical body. those are the ONLY things in this world any mortal human can do. practice helps with efficiency...so it appears as though the experienced defender is hardly moving, but actually, they are just moving/shifting/pivoting efficiently and by the minimum amount needed to neutralize the incoming threat while simultaneously arriving to a strategic position for a counter to take them out. there are no sheilds of chi they are bouncing off of. they are using well timed muscle groups and skeletal structure. thats it.
Whatever mental constructs are used to describe or make it actionable are fine...but when those constructs are for deception, we lose communication.

here's how to detect BS with these subjects: * it's starts getting very vague and further removed from physics...or... * people start saying 'its impossible to put into words'.

If quantuum mechanics can be put into words in the last chapter of a high school science book, I think neijin/ki/chi should be describable in the physical world. sure concepts can be outlandish - sometimes conceptualizing is a useful tool - but the results of that construct, ALWAYS must have a describable physical world effect or else it simply isn't useful in self-defense...just the fantasy of self-defense.

having said that...anyone care to continue the conversation?

one thing I noticed about Aikido is that for a split second when the attack comes in, the defender yeilds and pivots core/deflects just enough to put the attacker at the peak or over their center of gravity. I think that is what I need work on building efficiency in, since I think I'm expending too much energy and force using arm deflection instead of center of gravity deflection....

didn't mean any disrespect to anyone, especially to you eyrie...I just don't respond well to being toyed with.

Top
#255000 - 05/22/06 10:16 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Instead of getting frustrated over the internet, why don't you get some 'hand's on'? Here's a local you can beat up.

http://www.umass.edu/umhome/events/articles/33824.php

Top
#255001 - 05/22/06 12:17 PM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Just an exercise of communicating things like this in words. I already have what I need as far as 'hands on'. I was following the concepts until the notion of non-moving movement was thrown in. Then yes, I got annoyed because things were being described in terms of demonstration tricks. they are tricks since they are rooted in physics which the demonstrator is well aware of, yet describes it to the observer as something else much more mysterious.

can you deflect a hand to the chest without moving? if not, have you seen the UMASS class you point out do it? if not, why recommend it? if you have, why aren't you there?

anyone who can demonstrate the push deflection with me, without moving at all, gets a free prize.

If there is movement, then just describe the movement. why go into detail about stuff one minute, and then all of a sudden forget plain english when it gets down to it? lol sorry, but if that comes across abrasive, imagine how abrasive the reality is when people spend years on learning how to do a technique they saw demonstrated by their instructor...only to learn it was a parlor trick.

Imagine the years of a kid thinking he's 'channeling chi thru his arm' to make it unbendable only to find out others with 5 minutes of training can do this trick. thats kindof not funny.

center of gravity, breathing, relaxation, body dynamics, structure, etc .... the suit concept to bring the synergies together was a good one. maybe we should shake chakuras and leave it at that? since thats where the paths of the thread seem to diverge. perhaps the 'face-saving' thing to do would be to just leave it as: I'm too critical to get it...I'd be willing to submit to that.

sorry if I came off strong, ...I just think it's an important subject.
thank you everyone for chiming in.
-E

Top
#255002 - 05/22/06 12:21 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Just reading and thinking. Thanks for bringing up an interesting topic.

Question: In your opinion, are the kung li exercises incorporated in the Goju you/we are studying considered an aspect of this 'neigong'?

(now I will go back to my corner and be quiet)

Top
#255003 - 05/22/06 02:06 PM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yes harlan, but for different application than what I started the thread for. while most of the Kung Li exercises develop 'short power', I was looking for complimentary solo exercises to help me with 'soft power'. which, is kind of a misnomer using the word 'power' at all, since the goal is to effect with the least amount of effort. sortof connects with 'heavy' and 'sticky' hands concepts.

just found this article, that speaks to the exercises I'm looking for:
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/journal/article01.html
Quote:


Nei Gong is training which is designed specifically for the development of muscle groups, ligaments, and tendons not usually under conscious control. This training involves refinement of the basic wai gong skills and development of the connection between mind and body. In the beginning levels of nei gong training, repetitive physical movements are combined with:


1) relaxation of all muscles which are not directly involved with the particular action being performed

2) breathing in coordination with the motion

3) simple imagery (use of intention).

The combination of relaxed physical movement, breathing, and intention begins to teach the practitioner how to move in a highly refined manner and facilitates the development of subtle strength and efficiency in movement.





and
Quote:

Nei gong training teaches the individual how to use the body strength in the most natural and efficient manner so that it is not "clumsy." Simple repetitive exercises which teach the practitioner to coordinate mind, body and breath are all that is required in nei gong. It doesn't need to get any fancier or more sophisticated than that.





everyone's input in this thread, and that article, led me to here:
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/jineight/eight.htm
Some of the 8-palms exercises look promising for what I'm looking for. actually, (this is embarrassing) there are a couple in there I recognize but didn't know they had names...we've been doing a few of these in classes. I only need to add a few more to my practice.

actually, the ones I'd like to add to my routine are #7,8,9, and a side-order of a #10 and some decaf tea. lol sorry.

Top
#255004 - 05/22/06 07:57 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ed, haven't I been straight with you so far?

Have I gone beyond the realms of physics and natural laws?

Just because one person spouts BS ("life energy" - yeah sure...) on a "ki trick" and the other person invalidates the person's claim, does that somehow automatically invalidate the test?

Using muscles in opposition is one way to explain the trick, but it is not the intent of the exercise. Firstly, the down force through the elbow is meant to be redirected to the ground using the "suit", such that the pusher feels like they're pushing against the ground, and the "unbendable arm" is used as a bridge.

We're talking about vector forces and specifically distribution of load from load-bearing structures here... nothing mystical.

There's an old saying in the internal arts... stillness in motion. That's the whole point of making movements so small that you appear to be standing still.

Top
#255005 - 05/22/06 08:20 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
fair enough, but 'no movement' and 'small movement' are two completely different things. lets talk literally. what moves ever so slightly in order to push a hand down that is pressing against your chest?

Top
#255006 - 05/22/06 10:28 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Crap, I sound like a broken record.... the suit.... the suit... micro adjustments in the body's 'anti-gravity' mechanism.

Unless you can feel the suit and can use at will it to manipulate vector forces, it's really pointless to talk about the rest of it, coz it sure as hell ain't gunna make sense.

The point is, none of this is "ki magic" (yeah, right, "life energy" my a$$). It's plain old bio-mechanics and physics - but NOT what you think.

Perhaps removing the blinkers from time to time might help....

Top
#255007 - 05/22/06 11:07 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ok, because you are cool, I'll trust you again. ooops wait, let me lift the blinders... there we go...

'anti-gravity' mechanism - new term for the thread. all muscles are anti-gravity, we can lift any voluntary muscle in our body to counter gravity.

see, here's the problem eyrie. you are basically just giving vague conceptual descriptions and then saying, if you can't do it you wont understand. that would be known as a cop-out. what I'm looking for is the actual body movement.

also, one question - does timing play a part in what you are trying to describe? because it's much easier to deflect forward momentum, downwards. than deflecting a constant pressure. the faster they go forward, the easier the deflection. I do this by slightly turning the torso and slightly bending knees just at the proper time. there is no muscular effort nor conscience thought.

Top
#255008 - 05/23/06 12:41 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ah... you know why they say all this "internal" stuff can't be talked about, it has to be felt? Well... guess what...?

Because it's "internal", everyone's different for starters - there's no hard and fast rule that says it's gotta be like this or like that. It's how it "feels" to YOU - or in harlan's example, how YOU 'see' it.

I know you want to know "how"... I did too... the thing is letting YOUR body TALK to YOU - not me tell you what you should feel.

The "tests" are really bio-feedback mechanisms for your partner to HELP you so YOUR body can tell you what's going on.

Does timing play a part? Only in a fighting encounter where there is a lot of external movement. For this sort of EXERCISES, nope.

Sorry if it sounds "vague"... be sure to check out how much less vague Feldenkrais, Alexander, somatics, Rolf, neuromuscular and other related topics are... there's just too much crap for me to post, and I'd rather be doing my standing exercises than sitting and typing.

What has standing got to do with fighting? EVERYTHING. But do people want to learn how to stand? Hmmmm.... sure, but first, show me how to fight. These are the ones I dump on their a$$ and say, if you can't "stand", how can you fight? Or maybe you should do BJJ instead?? LOL!

Top
#255009 - 05/23/06 12:52 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
BTW, try using the fascial suit to counter gravity instead of external muscle....oh gee, maybe that's what "standing" means...

OK, here's a "standing" exercise...

Stand shoulder width apart, high-ish horse stance. Imagine you're in a hole up to your waist. Place your hands palm down and push up on this imaginary ground - like you're trying to lift yourself out of the hole.

But at the same time, push down on your feet (like your feet are stuck in sticky, heavy mud in the hole). Now try to lift your knees until you feel a tension in your spine. Then back off on the tension until it's barely there and try and hold it.

Now, use your breath to lift your knees and pull up/push down at the same time (thru the spine). Once you get the hang of up and down, try adding the push/pull feeling to front/back (chest level), left/right (shoulder level)- at the same time.

If you can feel "something", you're exercising the suit. If not, keep trying until you do. What you're looking for is a "grab" on the suit. Kinda like when you hang weights from your nether regions.... (oh, can I say that?)

Top
#255010 - 05/23/06 01:17 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
there are different ways to get the job done, eyrie ...don't get high and mighty on me now. lol

a 'feeling' can not intercept, deflect or evade.

I'd like to try this drill with you: you stand there and feel/imagine whatever you want...and I throw you a circular neck strike. ...geez eyrie, are you ok? I thought you were going to DO something. hehe

ok, I know, you are talking exercises but I feel better making that cheap shot. thats what you get for treating me like a noob who hasn't paid any dues in training time, comes into a forum and wants to know the secret mystery inner workings of your Art. it's not like that, just this one aspect of aikido interests me, so I'm plucking it out and adding it to my understanding. people do that all the time, they just don't admit it.

tell you what, mr cryptic, I'll put money on this - kindof like the other thread where both have nothing to lose.
You stand there, and I push. if you move even a fraction of an inch or tighten any muscle, you lose. if you don't redirect my force vector, you lose.

you are telling me you would make a money bet on that?

Top
#255011 - 05/23/06 01:31 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
eyrie, that exercise you mention is EXACTLY the 'yoi' position of Goju kata. It's not always shown, so some goju kata you see performed may or may not have it.
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=186

Top
#255012 - 05/23/06 02:11 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Ed,
You talk about redirecting force to identify internal power.
In the aikido I have experienced, this priciple is used.
Using the ki of the opponent.
We (goju-ryu karate) train this too in kakie exercise.
But how about offensive moves and internal power ??
There is no redirecting force vectors. It is mostly linear.
Goal is to let power(ki) harvestad in the tanden flow
without obstruction to the point of contact with the intent of maximum power release.
We use sanchin training primarely for that.
This is primeraly how I see internal power training (neigong) and it holds no secrets or mystical things.
Correct breathing, correct posture, correct attitude/intent.
This entire concept is ki, it is not one physical thing or energy in my opinion, it is a conceptual thing as a combibation of body, mind and breathing.
Eventually this perception will be 'aware' in everything you do, like the yoi (opening) of goju ryu. But I do not imagine standing in a hole with mud, just pushing the fists sideway and down.
This is my perception of it and if this is not correct or not 'core' I would like to hear it.

Top
#255013 - 05/23/06 05:37 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I dunno Ed... only a noob would make a comment like that. LOL!

Seriously, any of these "tricks" can be circumvented - if you know how. But it kinda defeats the purpose of the exrecise doesn't it? Heck, even you could push Tohei over standing on one leg, but that's not the point is it? It's to demonstrate an internal ability, and sadly many people like to think it's something else and therefore feel the need to debunk it.

Frankly I don't see the point in engaging in an exercise where the parameters of the exercise are clearly defined and one party decides to be "tricky" and try to thwart the other person. Do you?

I've been doing my exercises, so I'm pretty confident that you'd bounce off me and throw yourself if you did try to push me - without me moving. So yeah, I'll put money on it.

If I say that kokyu-ho is an exercise involving application of the suit would that make sense? So why not do kokyu-ho then, you ask? Well, how do you know if you're using pure shoulder force or force from the ground and your hara/dantien?

BTW, is that really a "ready" stance or is that kiko training? Have a think about it... ibuki, body tensing followed by relaxation, "winding" (the suit) using the foot/leg rotation.

If that's not neigong, I don't know what it is... maybe a getting ready to fight stance?

Nothing I have said so far contradicts anything you already know. I'm just pointing at the "intent" of the exercise and not the exercise itself.

Top
#255014 - 05/23/06 06:05 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I just found this:
http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-pom1.html

Not saying anything substantially different to what I've said so far...

Top
#255015 - 05/23/06 07:37 AM Re: Neigong [Re: CVV]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
CVV: thats exactly what I'm trying to find out.

eyrie: the article you linked looks interesting. I'll read it.

wow, I'd bounce off if I tried to push you.

Top
#255016 - 05/23/06 07:48 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ya know, I'd love to say it's a Jedi-trick... but it's merely a "basic" body skill.

Someone once related to me that a skilled XingYi practitioner who served as the Empress (Dowager, I presume?) bodyguard, used to clear a path for her palaquin by simply walking thru the crowd and bouncing people off him. Apparently, the people getting "bounced" had no idea what happened....

(If I find the story I'll post it)

Top
#255017 - 05/23/06 10:55 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
my findings on this may not be the direction you were trying to lead me, but perhaps it's overlapping. in any event, I'm glad I was pressing on you to spit it out. lol I think everyone in this thread 'knows' me enough to realize not to take it personal and I appreciate no one did (or at least didn't show it ) anyway....

That article bridged the gap between what you are trying to describe, and what I understand. all of this you are descibing is in order to become 'aware' of muscles and supporting structures that we are not usually aware of.

and I think you are right to some extent, that my previous training did not specifically point out exactly what it was we were doing, but rather instead, put it in terms of 'rooting' and 'sinking' and 'gripping the floor' etc.

While never thinking of it in terms of concepts, but rather in terms of doing something, subconsciencely my body has been learning them that way.
but since the actions were in certain terms (gripping, rooting, etc), then the underlying muscles/structures were only being optimised towards those terms.

because of the subtlety, training these structures is really only thru imagery and repetition. after a while the imagagery goes away and is gradually replace with just a keen 'feel' for it.

I already know imagery works as a training method. what I didn't know is the subtlety it could be used for. so it's basically the same as I understand it, but with a finer grainularity.

It's given me food for things to incorporate in my training......meanwhile, as we wait a year or so to allow my body to learn what my brain has....can we continue the thread in whatever direction the next person steers it? or we can talk about this more if we want...

one more thought...or maybe another way of explaining what is physically going on ...another way to describe the 'suit'. imagine if every fiber of muscle and every strand of tendon, ligament, etc were replaced with either a '1' (on) or '0' (off). as we stand flatfooted and top-heavy, there is a certain pattern of 1's and 0's which we can think of as our current position's 'fingerprint'. a real actual fingerprint has swirls and broken lines etc that follows a rough pattern, but it's certainly never perfectly symetrical. back to the body's 'fingerprint' - imagine if we could change the structure of the pattern so that we had alignment of the swirls in a particular vector at any given moment. control over each '1' and '0' state would happen automatically as long as we had the proper image of which pattern to use.

to equate concepts to tie this back:
'the suit' = 'the digital fingerprint'

now what was so hard about putting that into words? lol

Top
#255018 - 05/23/06 11:17 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
also, putting what I said into 3-d just to blow people's minds, is like when you squeeze an egg on the sides with your thumb and index finger it breaks easy...but using the same two fingers positioned top and bottom of the egg, and its' damn near impossible to crack.

the standing egg.

Top
#255019 - 05/24/06 02:36 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You got it bud! It's the choice of words.... sorry, I did that deliberately to screw with your imprinted paradigm.

Yes, it's really really subtle stuff... hence relaxing and opening your mind to increase sensitivity and awareness.

Definitely a different way... not for everyone.

Top
#255020 - 05/24/06 06:02 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Sorry, was at work earlier, so couldn't write much.

I'm glad the article helped. Different words connotate different meanings. The trick is sifting thru the ritualistic myth/mystical stuff and working out the pure concepts.

The mental imagery is part of the training.

Basically, the idea is to learn how to transfer forces to and from the ground thru your structure (by that I mean the "suit" and how that is attached to the skeletal structure).

The next step is to learn to move using the ground and transfer of weight. Then learning the "tricks" of using the mind to manipulate the forces. And then strengthening the forces so that they can be used for fighting applications rather than simply staying within the realm of "cute tricks".

Quote:


one more thought...or maybe another way of explaining what is physically going on ...another way to describe the 'suit'. imagine if every fiber of muscle and every strand of tendon, ligament, etc were replaced with either a '1' (on) or '0' (off). as we stand flatfooted and top-heavy, there is a certain pattern of 1's and 0's which we can think of as our current position's 'fingerprint'. a real actual fingerprint has swirls and broken lines etc that follows a rough pattern, but it's certainly never perfectly symetrical. back to the body's 'fingerprint' - imagine if we could change the structure of the pattern so that we had alignment of the swirls in a particular vector at any given moment. control over each '1' and '0' state would happen automatically as long as we had the proper image of which pattern to use.

to equate concepts to tie this back:
'the suit' = 'the digital fingerprint'





I wouldn't put it that way... but could you be subconsciously referring to yin/yang (positive/negative)?

On some level it is. The taiji folk talk about full/empty, open/close, substantial/insubstantial. It's basically balancing the forces so that the net effect can be neutralized.

The other thing that you may come across in the CMA literature (and CMA influenced JMA) is "balancing the energies of heaven and earth", or more precisly, connecting the "upper" and "lower" thru the "middle".

Instead of fingerprint, how about "energy" print?

Top
#255021 - 05/24/06 07:19 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm going to stop there, I have some things to work on. (cup runnith over). feel free for anyone to continue or guide the thread... thanks all, some good stuff here.
-E

Top
#255022 - 05/24/06 08:04 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Excellent debate!

Now, do we consider neigong to be a method of how we train? or would you consider it to be specific sets of exercises?

I could see it being either. Neigong basically means internal work. If I plug in the theory bejhind neigong into all of my forms is it neigong?

I do specific sets of exercises that are described as neigong. For example; xingyi neigong, jiben shou fa, and tien gan. These are all specific neigong exercises.

My forms are not called neigong. We have our post heaven sets (hou tian) and pre heaven sets - circle walking etc. Being an IMA practice, (neijia) they have the same core principles as the neigong. What sets these apart from specific neigong exercises?

Once again - good thread.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#255023 - 05/24/06 07:36 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Fisherman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
An excellent point Chris. I see it primarily as a method of how we train.

To the casual observer, exercises can mean nothing - after all, you see someone "standing" and it doesn't look like they're doing much - apart from standing in a silly stance.

Additionally, unless you know the specifics of the exercise and what you are meant to be exercising and how it is being exercised, the exercise itself is meaningless.

Hence the reason a lot of so-called qigong (and yoga) books are aimed at the health and "new age" market - because a lot of the "internals" (i.e. methods) are deliberately omitted.

Top
#255024 - 05/25/06 06:09 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
This is an awesome vid of Tetsuzan Kuroda, especially the last 10-20 sec of the clip. If you look closely, there's a lot of stuff he's showing of what's possible with that level of skill in redirecting forces internally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InlQtTMK5Ys&search=kuroda%20martial


AJ link to Kuroda interview. Mentions some stuff already discussed here.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=85


Edited by eyrie (05/25/06 06:23 AM)

Top
#255025 - 05/25/06 09:29 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
eyrie, that interview link has to be about the best I've read in a while! deserving of it's own thread of discussion.
thanks for sharing it

Top
#255026 - 05/25/06 11:26 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Here is a link to a specific Neigong practice called Tiandi Neigong.

http://www.yizongbagua.com/Comm_article_tiandineigong_Buddy.htm

Check out the link at the bottom of the article for a vid of the exercise. (May take a little bit to load).
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#255027 - 05/25/06 11:45 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
A couple of things that I noticed in the video. (Very cool BTW).

With the finger wrestling, the redirection of force is done by making micro adjustments within the structure. Moving things so that they line up in a way that the force is directed in a line so the entire body becomes engaged. When the host tries it his finger is not properly aligned and thus he cannot perform the feat. When the master pushes it he is correcting the alignment in the finger.

I liked the demonstration of the master whipping the host's arm. This shows how you can use the knowledge of your structure and its use against someone else. He envokes a wave in the hosts arm that travels into his body and gains control of his spine. Sweet!

I was watching how he transitioned his weight when moving and noticed similarities between his movements and the 1/2 step or ban bu seen in Bagua and Xingyi. But then again, doesnt Aikido have some roots within Bagua?

I am working on the article, very interesting thus far. I'm going to finish reading it before I post on it.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#255028 - 05/25/06 02:16 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Fisherman]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
the arm whipping trick can only be demonstrated when the 'uke' is completely relaxed. he first tells the uke where will be jolted forward.

if you can already make a towel snap, this trick would take about 5 minutes to master....then you just need an uke who admires you.

if the uke DIDN'T know which part was intended to jolt, then it would be more impressive.

there was no demonstration of ki there, just snapping a towel and the timing of the wrist snap. I have no doubt his skill is beyond anything I'd ever hope to accomplish, but even Masters such as this are not above circus tricks.

The article did more justice to the subject....since, it can't be 'seen' anyway.

Top
#255029 - 05/25/06 07:05 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Fisherman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
By changing the alignment and adding a vector in a different direction (to the empty spot), he takes away the other person's vector.

The arm "whip" to control the spine... definitely. Basically it's transference of force thru the internal structure. BTW, Ed, nobody said anything about "ki".

I'm not certain that Aikido has roots in Bagua. There are some unsubstantiated stories floating around that Ueshiba may have picked up some CMA on his sojurns to Mongolia and China. It is equally likely that Ueshiba made the connections himself, or that this knowledge was already inherent in the koryu systems.

Top
#255030 - 05/25/06 07:34 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

BTW, Ed, nobody said anything about "ki".



good point.

Top
#255031 - 05/25/06 07:45 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
let's skip ahead further than what my noob aiki a$$ is ready for...

what is the principle/feeling/mindset that allows for being able to roll within a short distance?...other than just 'try to put your head in your nethers'.

and how/does that relate to soft power? (I'm making you guys work, hehe)

Top
#255032 - 05/25/06 08:06 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm not sure I understand the point of your question.

Ukemi on a very basic level is a method of escaping from a joint lock throw. If you have your joints locked and don't roll properly, it gets dislocated or the muscle/tendon gets torn. Note that many koryu jujitsu had joint lock throws from which one couldn't escape from... (hmmm.... nasty!)

A good example is shiho-nage (4 corner throw) - a fairly common throw in many martial arts. For obvious safety reasons, many don't encounter the locking throw until uke develops the ability to safely roll out of such a throw.

OTOH, ukemi at a higher level requires the ability to redirect internal forces such that one becomes unlockable and unthrowable - in the sense that any attempt to be moved, locked or thrown can be countered.

I'm in the middle of writing an article about various aspects of ukemi, and I'll post it in due course for comments, critique and feedback - if people are interested.

Hopefully this answers your question for now.

Top
#255033 - 05/25/06 10:22 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I was referencing the interview/article...the part of being able to roll within a short distance.

Top
#255034 - 05/25/06 10:37 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I think I'm having a noob day... I can't seem to find the reference. Can you quote the entire paragraph here?

Top
#255035 - 05/25/06 11:26 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
oops...sorry, the article link you gave was a partial. you need the full article:

full article here:
http://www.bugei.com/kuroda.html
Quote:

Later, after hearing my story about my grandfather taking forward falls thirty-six times on the length of one tatami mat, he said that he first began training with the goal of taking two falls.
When he told me this over the phone, following his lead, I began the same training. When I tried at that time it still took about seventy percent of the length of the tatami for me to fall, just as it had until that time. The only hint I had was the words of my grandfather I had heard as a boy. He said, "Roll forward and try to put your head into your crotch!" Is it that easy to put your head into your crotch? Since he was not talking about having a particular degree of body flexibility, I couldn't figure out how to roll.
.
.
.




Top
#255036 - 05/26/06 12:31 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ah... it's what's called keeping your ukemi "tight". Basically, it's falling on the same spot as many times as you can. Sticking your head up your a$$ is one way of putting it...

Yep, you have to soften and lighten your ukemi and make it "small", i.e. a tight circle. It's really good training for building "center" strength.

Top
#255037 - 05/26/06 07:50 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
We did that sort of training for the monkey style form...didn't really spend enough time on it. Rolling in place isn't easy to accomplish, especially on a concrete floor. Rolling up and down the school, jumping rolls and in place rolls. I know it's a different focus than Aikido ukemi. and it's got nothing to do with neigong, so...I disappear *poof*

Top
#255038 - 05/26/06 10:27 AM Re: Neigong [Re: WuXing]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
not necessarily off topic...and I guess that is what I was asking.

I'm just suppossing a link, this isn't from experience.

first, a recap:
In this thread, we talked about a sort of 'active standing' as a prerequisite to understanding nei jin. and remember, 'nei jin' is just a term to describe a core principle of movement (as it related to MA) characterized by 'softness' and elasticity. unconscience timed breathing plays a central part of 'energy' restoration and transmission while maintaining relaxation with the ideal being conservation of that energy.
Also covered was the slippery and elusive distinction of changing natural ability as opposed to increasing natural ability. Increasing ability would be training to strengthen, quicken, reaction/reflex, etc ...the normal 'hard' MA training we all do. Whereas changing ability is using imagery of the mind to subconsciencely direct internal patterns - the internal patterns are basically the micro adjustments of internal tissue to maximize efficiency. This 'changing' happens even while standing and seemingly motionless.

Here's the tricky part 'internal' training after many years has the net effect of external training (thru refined energy conservation). and external training after many years, has the effect of internal training (thru refined efficiency).

from the inside-out or from the outside-in.

Go and Ju and not separate principles.

------------

my question is: Training to roll within a short distance...wouldn't that be one next logical place to start training after 'standing' ?

Top
#255039 - 05/26/06 04:20 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I agree to the assesment of years of training and the difference of internal and external approach eventually lead to unification in the traind person.
However I do not see the identification hard-external / soft-internal. Hard and soft encompas in my opinion something else than internal and external power search/release. In my opinion hard and soft refer to technique (hard linear technique/soft circular technique) and are executed by internal and external power. In terms of karate for instance, an straight jab (age uchi) can deflect an incoming punch and attack opponents head and requires internal(optimum momentum and alignment) and external power(hardened forearm) yet it is a linear hard technique. A furi uchi (roundhouse backfist ???) is a circular soft technique and also requires internal(enchainment of alligned joints) and external power(strong wrist/shoulder) to be executed with power.
As such I do not automatically connect soft with internal and hard with external.
Internal/external relates to power.
Hard/soft relates to technique.
Spitting/swallowing relates to breathing.
Sinking/lifting relates to stance/grounding.

Top
#255040 - 05/26/06 07:22 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

...unconscience timed breathing plays a central part of 'energy' restoration and transmission while maintaining relaxation with the ideal being conservation of that energy.




Unconscious?? Breathing is conscious part of the power generation chain! By restoration and transmission, do you mean "store and release"? I'm not sure that the "ideal" is conservation of energy. If you mean "store and release" energy (like a rubber band), it's *conversion* of potential (yin) to kinetic (yang) energy.

One way to look at it is the chambered fist when punching. One hand is is "full", the other "empty". Power is transferred from empty to full and vice versa through a conduit that runs from hand to hand across the back/spine.

I think you're starting to get a grasp of the concepts. Now all you need is to apply it to hojo undo...

Quote:


my question is: Training to roll within a short distance...wouldn't that be one next logical place to start training after 'standing' ?




Actually, stepping would be the next logical step... hmmm... like kata? i.e. stepping whilst maintaining the internal feeling of standing still, but expanding the internal "feeling" up/down, left/right, front/back at the same time.

When you step, it should feel like you're being "pulled" in the direction of the step. Or like trying to slide step while you're up to your ankles/knees in sticky mud. (See yi quan friction step).

Top
#255041 - 05/28/06 08:20 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

my question is: Training to roll within a short distance...wouldn't that be one next logical place to start training after 'standing' ?




I would say the next phase after standing would be movement and working on the refinement of that movement. I think whatever the core or signature movements are within specified art would be where you go after standing. Aikido may be rolling. Taiji may be the essential actions of peng, lu, ji, and an. Xingyi may be the half step. And of course Bagua would be the practice of circle walking.

On a side note, rolling and practicing how to fall properly is a great skill to have. I have been thrown a couple of time now and been a little amazed that it didn't hurt.

I'd agree with you Ed that the overall goal of training MA's has a similar point of focus. Just different methods to try and aceive the same thing.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#255042 - 05/28/06 08:55 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Fisherman]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And of course, the outcome of all of this is that you want to do this all the time, in *everything* you do.

Top
#255043 - 05/30/06 04:03 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I've thought of stepping as just going where your CG or hara leads you.

Top
#255044 - 05/30/06 04:12 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I can see stepping that way and I can see the feet leading your CG. Where the feet point is where the body will naturally want to travel.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#255045 - 05/30/06 11:54 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And then there is "stepping" using the weight and ground force to transfer to and from your hara/lower dantien....

Fune-kogi undo and sayu-undo is a good exercise - if you're looking into that sort of thing from an aikido perspective.

Top
#255046 - 06/11/06 10:42 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
eyrie and all: I haven't lost interest in this topic...I'm just exploring some ideas shared here and will get back when I've semi 'caught-up' to getting a feel for what is being talked about. I appreciated everyone's input and re-read thru this now and then to absorb it. Thanks again.

Top
#255047 - 06/12/06 04:51 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I hope it's not one of those "see you in 10 years" thing!

Top
#255048 - 11/02/06 10:14 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
whats funny is realizing something was right there all along....only the point of view had to change. After looking, thinking, talking and reading in addition to training and experimenting - I think I've inadvertantly found out another seemingly unrelated question that was always in the back of my mind - why do Sanchin slow?


I really love the "ah-ha's" when they come with physical learning.

Top
#255049 - 11/02/06 11:19 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
What's funny is ME saying exactly that all along....

So, enlighten us on your epiphany....

Why do sanchin slow? Why do sanchin at all? What purpose does sanchin serve?

Top
#255050 - 11/03/06 12:00 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
but you telling me is quite different from feeling a peice of this topic. I'm not saying I'm 'there'...no where near it. my 'drumbeat' is barely a murmur.

one thing that still puzzles me though...when I was taught Sanchin, it was slow with 'hard' out - and slow with 'soft' in. but when you do it fast, the polarity reverses. soft and loose out...then 'hard' for a split second on the way back. odd and counter-intuitive isn't it.

Top
#255051 - 11/03/06 12:22 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Likewise... maybe we're just a bit dense...

I guess the pertinent questions are, what is your body going thru/feeling when you do it slow, as opposed to when you're doing it fast. What specifically is it that you are "working", and what effect does speed of performance have on that. When you talk about "polarity", what specifically are you referring to? Polarity of what? These are more questions are what we should be asking.

I'm afraid this is where the limit of my knowledge ends, for the moment. Perhaps someone else with more experience can clarify.

Top
#255052 - 11/03/06 01:06 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
what I'm describing is the feeling of letting your arm/body loose on the way out (of lets say a strike), and then in order to reverse the direction quickly...a 'polarity change' (my termonology since I don't know the lingo) has to happen. that jolt is with the entire body as a very fast ripple, barely detectable...but somehow you know it's there when you see someone do it.

the 'jolt' isn't caused by the strike so much as it's caused by the sudden and rapid change from soft to hard. thats what I'm calling 'polarity change'.

the effect of the jolt on a bag is pretty close to the same kind of jolt we've talked about before and similar impulse impact that the kimura-shukokai guys get with full reverse punches - the effects are similar, but the mechanic is quite different. the bag folding and jumping as oppossed to pushing is similar in effect. you have to get hit by it to really appreciate the quick shock it produces. ...and nothing magic about it. just takes a long time to get.

the advantage in terms of this topic of course is that the power takes less distance than a reverse punch to achieve, plus it's not dependant on the configuration of the strike, AND without comprimizing setup time....which is better suited for closer-in range. but you don't get something for nothing, and unless you train this full time, it really does seem like it would take a while to get.

the points you and others make about structure, breathing, and internal power, etc is exactly what Sanchin has, thats the neigong aspect of Sanchin. the form itself is very internally structured with external consequence. and btw, I'm even more convinced now, that the focus of Sanchin study isn't so much about 2-person application analysis...but more the development of this fundamental. which is also why we still see Sanchin today in various configurations in other Chinese internal Arts. I notice though that curiously, the Chinese Arts having Sam Chen as part of their study, also have a significant amount of external aspects to their style.

The reason to do Sanchin slow is a learning device. a counter-intuitive one, for sure....but the lessons are there.

Top
#255053 - 11/03/06 01:37 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
OK, I think you're talking about "store and release" (which is opposite to what you're describing - your idea of soft to hard is release first then reload). In order to release, you have to store first. How are you storing for that initial release?

If we look at the links that Karate has to Fujian White Crane and Southern CMA in general, and the influences from Southern Shaolin, I think we can see the common thread, via external Shaolin Buddhist qigong practices.

Top
#255054 - 11/03/06 07:23 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

unless you train this full time, it really does seem like it would take a while to get





This is true if you are re-inventing the wheel all over again. As I've said many many times before, sanchin is a neigong set for training internal energy with no combat application. It does not seem apparently so at first is because of its outward "hard" appearance. If you see a real master do it, there is hardness yes, but not an "exhaustive kind of hardness" and there is a certain "sinewy smoothness" in the hard movements that seem "soft"

How is that possible and how do you "get it?"

I've not come on in earlier in this thread because I felt the time was not right as the questions you posed and the queries you made of Eyrie requires too much explanation for someone who have not got the "AH HA!" yet.

In a sentence, it will never happen if you do not start with building up an AWARENESS of your 'chi' circulation to a degree where you can consciously circulate the chi deep into the tensed up muscles while moving around doing the sanchin kata and change the way they feel and behave. That's why the first sanchin set devised by Bodhidarma (the Indian Shaolin Monk) was called the "muscle-changing" set, because that's exactly what it does. It doubles, triples the effective speed of change from soft (non-striking) to hard (striking) of all the relevant muscles in the whole body and create a concussive-shock effect when a strike lands on someone.

Obviously you won't get it overnight; you need to build up your chi awareness and your muscles need time to change slowly. I would say if you learn from someone who don't string you along, you need about three years for the chi awareness and another three years for the Chi/muscle combination; about the same time period from white to black belt.

When you get to this point, you do the "sanchin" when you are doing the ordinary combat-specific kata. Sanchin gives you the fuel which explodes when you ignite it with a strike. Chi gives the raw material for manufacturing this fuel.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#255055 - 11/03/06 07:40 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I was trying to describe the mechanism behind "store and release". like I said, counter-intuitive.

releasing 'soft' and storing 'hard'. but externally, it's opposite as you say.

just like the breathing. inhale to store (soft), exhale to release (hard).

it's the change between the two modes that creates the jolt. (the 'ripple' to enable it is 180 degrees out of phase).

bah...my terms aren't working. I'll think of a different way to describe what I think is going on.

Top
#255056 - 11/03/06 07:46 AM Re: Neigong [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I disagree. "chi awareness" is an artificial construct...just a framework of a way of thinking about it. if people start there with that way of thinking (especially a western mind), it often goes misinterpreted. starting with a mis-interpretation might get you somewhere else. I don't believe thinking in terms of chi circulation is the only way.

Top
#255057 - 11/03/06 08:24 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Then don't. It works fine for me. Different paradigms for different people. Although, I do think that until one can 'resolve' this internal conflict of paradigms, certain insights will remain elusive.

Top
#255058 - 11/03/06 09:01 AM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
or no paradigms at all. but I'm not working on paradigms. My goal is to hit as hard at short distances with any strike as I do using other methods with a loaded reverse punch.
Potential energy (as in physics) has to come from somewhere...it's not magic. using hip, torsion, structure, timing, speed etc can get good potential energy stored and released but at closer distances it starts to break down.

but everyone is right....I need more time just working on it.

Top
#255059 - 11/03/06 12:25 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If it bothers you, don't think of it as "qi" or "ki" - but bear in mind, this stuff comes from Indian yogi practices, found its way to Tibet, China, Japan and Korea - mostly intact, with a few minor variations. But the theme throughout is consistent.

The imagery often used is one of moving like a snake - where do you think "kundalini" comes from??? It's being aware of your energy circulation at an extremely subtle level and being able to command it at will. Yes, that requires training - everyday of every moment until it is part of your original nature. Not second nature. Original nature.

Sure, you can use mechanical and physical constructs like hip torsion and such like to start to acquire it, but beyond that level, it's gaining control over unconscious automated responses.

But like BP said, no point going into all that detail if you haven't reached the first rung yet....

Top
#255060 - 11/03/06 02:53 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'the first rung' lol you mean the rung of believing it before being able to do it?

I bet I can hit harder than most people believing in Chi as a magical power, so which rung would that be?

what I think is even if someone had no book knowledge of Chi as a concept, they could still physically learn internal power. because it ultimately comes down to physics...whether we think of it as chi, mojo or water - reality doesn't distinguish based on what is going on in our heads and hearts. can you use it in real-time, and does it drop the guy - are the questions. everything else is construct.

maybe what we should each do is post brief clips of a demonstration of hitting something...or some kind of demo illustrating the principles.

it's possible to know the concepts well without ever being able to physically do them...so lets see them.

Top
#255061 - 11/03/06 08:20 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
To be honest, I don't use the word "qi" or "ki" at all when teaching. I rarely, if ever, use the word "energy" either. None of my teachers nor instructors did either. I think I've said this before.

True, most of this stuff can be explained in physics, mechanical or bio terms, BUT... it has to be shown and FELT in order to fully appreciate it.

I have no doubt that you can hit "hard". But "seeing" isn't quite the same as feeling it....

I've been hit by a 5th dan Goju practitioner, who apparently likes to think that "Go-ju" means that his hard is REALLY F**KIN hard, and his "soft" is harder than someone else's hardest. Sure it stung, but it wasn't as hard as what I hit him with.

After a while of trading blows in a Goju version of "push-hand" exercise, he couldn't work out why his "hard" punches had little effect on me, or why I was so relaxed, and he walked away saying "Don't hit so hard". Well, he started it first! I was only a noob in Goju at the time, and I thought that since he was hitting me, it must've been part of the "exercise". LOL!

Here's a little experiment to see if you understand the "first rung"...

If you have a suspended heavy bag... walk up to it, place your hands on it and walk out forward until the bag is hanging at 45 degrees. Hold it there for 10mins without letting your deltoids burn.... if you can do that then try throwing the bag out forward WITHOUT MOVING your shoulders or arms.

Top
#255062 - 11/03/06 09:17 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no problem. whats next?

Top
#255063 - 11/03/06 09:26 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Is this test using the honor system?

Top
#255064 - 11/03/06 09:31 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You know, you can't cheat with this stuff. You either got it and know it, or you don't. You can't intellectualize this stuff. You either feel it or you don't. That only comes by changing the way you hold your posture and move.

AND I KNOW you haven't done the exercise yet. If you did, you would have a better question than "What's next".

All the clues are here - re-read the thread. Use your biggest "muscle" and WORK it out. What's next? Use only your breath to throw the bag out.

I can think of lots of different exercises to "test" your strength. But unless you DO it, you're not going to "get it".

Top
#255065 - 11/03/06 09:37 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol - it was a joke eyrie...of course I can't do it. can you?

just to clarify: only BELEIVING in it also is not enough, right?

Top
#255066 - 11/03/06 09:56 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
See, Harlan "knows"...

I have a big Maori guy training with me right now (but not for much longer). He's 140kg and built like a brick sh!thouse. BUT....

He can't move me, throw me, lock me or push me if he's using physical strength. He can however begin to do all of the above (only just - because I let him) if he stops using physical strength and accesses this "something else" (which we will NOT call "ki").

I, OTOH, can bounce him, spit him out, push him over, throw him and drop him, pretty much at will. And you know what, he keeps coming back for more, because this "strength" is so weird and unlike any idea of physical strength that he has encountered before. So much so that he's gotten rid of his weight lifting equipment... now does that tell you something?

PS: I was in the middle of my reply above, so I'll answer your question now. Yep, I can. I can hold it all day if I wanted to. The problem is I ain't got all day. So I'll hold about 5-10mins depending on what other exercises I feel like doing at the time. Personally I prefer chopping wood and carrying water. Like I said, this stuff makes you a better "labourer".

Maybe start with 30-60 seconds? And see where you're bearing the load. Let your body talk to you.

You know, all the hojo-undo stuff in Goju comes from the same ideas - if you know WHAT you are meant to be training. You probably already have enough of the key concepts for you to go away and work it out.

And yes, you don't need to believe, but if it helps then do. And an open mind is easier to fill than a closed one.

Top
#255067 - 11/03/06 10:13 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Yes...but knowing/understanding isn't enough. A mind body connection has to be made...and then worked on. It sucks understanding...but not be able to do.

Top
#255068 - 11/03/06 10:15 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
well...it might dawn on me and click one day what you are talking about. and then theres the possibility it won't ever.

but I did resurrect this thread for a reason. I've been taking a look at how gong li exercises relate to Sanchin. I couldn't relate it until I did two things: do Sanchin fast, and do gong li slow.

since you have a better way with words about this stuff, I'll let you guess what dawned on me after doing that...

Top
#255069 - 11/03/06 10:17 PM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
harlan, it would equally suck knowing you've been physically working on things directly related but can't conceptualize them.

I suspect most people who throw out it's terms casually in posts in the past don't enter into these conversations because these are concepts and abilities that really are humbling. I feel like a moron not knowing this stuff...but I get a nugget every once in a while, and it futher peaks my interest....meanwhile, I just train and hopefully let my body do the learning. I joke about it or sometimes get testy, but it isn't easy (for me), and it's even harder to talk about.

the whole subject makes me feel like a white belt...and I like that feeling.

Top
#255070 - 11/03/06 10:40 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, I wouldn't know what dawned on you.... I can't read minds... yet. You know, part of the reason of having a forum is to discuss things. It's not a one-way street.

Top
#255071 - 11/03/06 11:30 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ok, I'll try. first, I didn't give the whole scenario. for that I have to go off topic a bit.

I suspect that alot of what a body learns at a very deep level (particularly as to this subject) happens when we are fatigued. we have to get those big muscles worked out in order to get to the micro ones...the ones that keep us going when it's hard to lift an arm. but it's important which exercises we do. something I never really cared about in the past. we worked out and worked out hard. we'd go thru kata in all different ways, holding stances forever, weights in our hands, slow with tension, etc. and maybe to an unconscious extent, my body was learning some of these topic principles...

Even now, I don't know for sure which training is best in terms of this thread topic, so I base what I do at home on faith...namely Gong li and Sanchin. for that kind of workout (which, I admittedly don't do enough...once a week at most on my own, not including regular class and not including just light workouts on the side now and then), it really is difficult to push myself to a limit that is actually a benefit to the physical learning I'm trying to get at. (not to mention how easy it is to make excuses that it sucks working out in the basement for any length of time with low ceiling, stone walls with spiders and millapedes crawling around).

but anyway, despite my lack of intensity-depth needed to really get this, I do have hints of it come now and then. it's fleeting, and if I don't force myself to be aware of it, I miss it and it vaporizes into no words, but remains as just an impression.

just understand that and realize if I even try to put it into words something I can't verbalize well...it will just come out sounding trivial.

which may be among the other reasons more people don't even try to talk about it.

I'll read your posts, but it seems I probably brought this up prematurely and need to just work on it more. thanks for the insights and thoughts eyrie, harlan and bpalm.

Top
#255072 - 11/04/06 12:37 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
There's an old saying that training to the point beyond exhaustion is where the point of this training becomes apparent - effortless power.

Once you understand the principles, does it matter what or how the exercises are done? Or what variations?

Top
#255073 - 11/04/06 09:40 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I do recall dragging my butt to class after being up for 48 hours straight. I dogged it through bo practice...I was so exhausted I didn't care. A funny remark floated past me:

'You're doing really well today.'

That whole concept of relaxing dawned on me then.

PS. Nothing like seeing Sanchin done, full out, using Gong Li. It's all there. Then, there is Tensho...

Top
#255074 - 11/04/06 10:54 AM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
There's "relaxed" and then there's "relaxed".

What does "relax" mean?

Top
#255075 - 11/04/06 01:46 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
in the new issue of CFA, there is an article on boxer Jack Dempsey. His concepts run parallel to this discussion but without the foreign terms and clouded language.

Chinese word: 'song'

misnomer literal translation: 'relaxed'.

more accurate English equvalent of 'song': "a balanced state which is neither slack nor tense."

Jack Dempsey on power generation: "teeter in position until you feel balanced and comfortable. Be relaxed everywhere as you teeter. Now, when you feel comfortable and relaxed..."

He didn't need to explain it in terms of chi flow. just simple direct language creating a real-world and atainable mental image.

since we don't have mental images of foreign words, without careful scrutany, our imagination and spiritual beleifs starts filling in the blanks of what we imagine things to be. It doesn't need to be that way by adding layers of abstraction.

eyrie,bpalm, harlan - I'm not criticizing you...your language is pretty direct without too much hocus pocus or fancy terms, and I appreciate it. I'm just reminding all of us of occam's razor.

Top
#255076 - 11/04/06 03:55 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I never saw a Dempsey fight, and have to defer to the real MA'ists here...but I think this is where I switch out. If the terminology from any culture only refers to dynamics...then it is lacking.

Top
#255077 - 11/04/06 05:51 PM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
does what is going on internally matter if it has the same external effect?

Top
#255078 - 11/04/06 06:30 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Of course it does; one can use a hammer to build a house, or destroy a house.

Top
#255079 - 11/04/06 06:36 PM Re: Neigong [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
a person defends themselves against an attack, by shifting out of the way just in time - then striking. the attacker falls.

another defender does the same thing to protect himself and eliminates the threat.


which one was taught power generation in terms of 'Chi'?

Top
#255080 - 11/04/06 08:11 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Chinese word: 'song'

misnomer literal translation: 'relaxed'.

more accurate English equvalent of 'song': "a balanced state which is neither slack nor tense."





Very good Ed! So much for not being able to verbalize...

Quote:


does what is going on internally matter if it has the same external effect?




I think we need to be wary that the dichotomy is artificial. See "balanced state".

Quote:


a person defends themselves against an attack, by shifting out of the way just in time - then striking. the attacker falls.

another defender does the same thing to protect himself and eliminates the threat.

which one was taught power generation in terms of 'Chi'?





Where's the causal relationship?

Quote:


You guys can wax on about mechanics/chi...it's just the beginning of the journey.





It is a way to "get the foot in the door" for some...


Edited by eyrie (11/04/06 08:11 PM)

Top
#255081 - 11/04/06 08:24 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Darn, you're fast.


Quote:


You guys can wax on about mechanics/chi...it's just the beginning of the journey.




Top
#255082 - 11/04/06 10:39 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I look at it this way... all of the verbal constructs, terms, dichotomies(or is that dichotomi?), and cerebral thinking is all only to paint an impression of subjective physical feel.

so having the feel of it, recognizing it when it 'clicks', and being able to reproduce it at will HAS to come first before we can even attempt to put it in words or claim to 'know'.

In the case of this thread, in order to 'know', we have to first 'do'. and the 'doing' has to have external application or it's not even a principle for defensive combat.

In this case, efficient movement for evading and striking.

when we are talking about efficient movement, I couldn't care less what beliefs are going on in a persons head...because thats the part I will find out on my own as a result of being able to do.

In other words, the belief that something works with application is the prerequisite to learning how to do it....not the belief in why it works -that comes later and is subject to interpretation.

so when we talk about 'internal arts', I'm assuming actual and physical application.

it's my fault for naming the thread 'neigong'...I should have named it "need help in developing explosive relaxed short-distance power". Which I thought is the same as 'internal skill' (literal translation 'Neigong'). To get this, it takes subtle and timed body mechanics of breathing, alignment, timing and most importantly 'feel' for it....and the way to build that is thru drills that are optimised for such things and persistently work doing them. what I haven't seen is the 'end product' of anyone giving advice on this. where's the beef? let's see a video of something that represents what all the advice is for. and I don't mean that as disrespectful, I'm suggesting it as a meanful way of communication on this subject.

One person might describe the 'feel' while doing as invisible channels of energy circulating...or another might say an inflatable suit...or another might like to describe it in terms of chakras. It's interpretive, I get that. I know one thing, the person being hit by it for real wouldn't care how you describe it...you either get it to work or you don't and I'd like to see the end result before taking any more advice.

Top
#255083 - 11/04/06 10:57 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Of course it's your fault.... it's ALWAYS your fault.

Since when did anyone here say anything about "belief" or believing in any of this??? I've noticed that you seem to have a nasty habit of imposing or projecting your dis-beliefs on others.

Sure, knowing and doing are two different things. But don't you think that knowing what it is that you're doing (or attempting to do) is important? There seems to be a disconnect in the mind-body connection somewhere....

PS: re: "subjective" interpretation... I think the bodyworkers explain this stuff in much better terms... remember that the ancient Chinese were working from a different understanding of what we now call "modern science". But you seem to have a real issue with accepting the fact that knowledge advances as technology advances and that both are interrelated cause and effect.

Top
#255084 - 11/04/06 11:00 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
so....when can I expect the video then?


and out of curiosity...in your opinion, what exactly IS the end product of understanding this? my goal is efficiency of movement (least exertion, maximum power).

Top
#255085 - 11/04/06 11:44 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Since when did anyone here say anything about "belief" or believing in any of this??? I've noticed that you seem to have a nasty habit of imposing or projecting your dis-beliefs on others.




lol, geez I dunno, you tell me...

"You guys can wax on about mechanics/chi...it's just the beginning of the journey."

"In a sentence, it will never happen if you do not start with building up an AWARENESS of your 'chi' circulation to a degree where you can consciously circulate the chi deep into the tensed up muscles while moving around doing the sanchin kata and change the way they feel and behave. That's why the first sanchin set devised by Bodhidarma (the Indian Shaolin Monk) was called the "muscle-changing" set..."

etc...want me to pick out quotes from the whole thread?

now, if I really *was* pushing my dis-beliefs, I'd point out the historical evidence that suggests Bodhidarma did not teach martial arts at all...in fact, after his years of meditation, when he came out of the cave, he was likely in a kind of rehab state at the temple for muscle atrophy. 'muscle changing' indeed. there are older texts which suggest martial arts was being practice at temples long before Bodhidarma. read the book "Chinese training manuals" by Kennedy.

I'm just trying to cut thru the folklore and ancient constructs and get to the dynamics of the matter. btw, did you know that the way 'chi' has been described in Chinese texts has changed several times since it first appeared in Chinese literature? fundamental changes whenever there was a shift in influence - astrology, confusianism, daoism, buddhism...all of those changes thru the centuries in belief structures had effects on the writings of 'chi' explaination. For instance, more contemporary, it was described as physical pathways circulating in the body....but they had to change that after western science took a look and basically said, "nope, don't see 'em". so now the channels are described as symbolic. I don't have the source of that info here, it was a library book...but it was a history of chi written by a chinese doctor and historian. each of his references were cited the original text. another place to read is the 3 part series on Chi in CFA magazine by H. Cook.

I try not to push disbelief so much as believing in reproducable fact and historic 'truths'. I can backup where my disbeliefs come from, can believers in Chi do the same? who's being more honest with themselves or more aware of possibilities? if a belief is considered infalable...isn't that itself a falicy?

reproducable fact to me, would be seeing you on video push a heavy bag without using arms, shoulders or turning your core. or an 'immovable body' demo. I'm not trying to embarras you, but if everyone is going to keep the tone of 'We know and you dont' ...then lets see some backup before continuing the conversation. respectfully of course.

Top
#255086 - 11/05/06 01:28 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Man, you have a real knack of taking things out of context and twisting it, dontcha....???

Harlan's quote was taken waaaay out of context. BP never mentioned anything about Bodhidarma teaching "martial arts". But somehow you managed to equate "sanchin set" with martial arts....????

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Qi was used by the ancient Chinese to describe various phenomena which were unexplainable to them at the time. Given our advances in knowledge and tehnology, our modern scientists have attempted to explain some of these phenomena - some more successfully than others.

Recently I came across a research article which found that neurotransmitters travel along the same paths as the meridians. But to me, until further reasearch is done, I would consider that "iffy". The more pertinent question, is even though the ancients didn't understand this or know how to explain it, the fact that they even identified the meridians, is it itself inexplicably interesting. And of course, I would question it, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Which is what you seem to be doing.

You seem to be confusing the issues here (or building a f**kin huge straw man). Do you want proof that this stuff works? Or do you want proof of "qi"? If proving that this stuff works, does that then prove the existence of "qi"? If this stuff doesn't work, then does that disprove the existence of "qi"? And therefore Martial Arts are bunk?

I don't know what you're getting at... but, there, I've just torched your straw man....

Top
#255087 - 11/05/06 02:01 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no, not trying to prove or disprove anything other than my point that constructs need not apply in order to 'get' these principles.

so I notice you didn't address this in your counter:
"In a sentence, it will never happen if you do not start with building up an AWARENESS of your 'chi' circulation to a degree where you can consciously circulate the chi deep into the tensed up muscles while moving around doing the sanchin kata and change the way they feel and behave."

I don't know eyrie, I think the fire went out on your torch to my 'strawman'. If thats not telling me 'believe in Chi or you can forget it' ...then I dont know what does.

and I'm fine with how people view and feel about things, harlan made it clear that she didn't want participation in the thread if it changed the way I was nudging it. I came to the realization that I'm trying to pursue something tangible, just as harlan is...I'm just deciding to look at it from a different angle - namely the physical application angle.
and if it does indeed have physical application, then it's perfectly legitimate to choose to look at it that way.

you are kindof right that I'm sometimes dismissive of beliefs just because they are beliefs...thats my flaw in some of my arguments. and you're right, who knows maybe someday science will discover pathways they didn't 'see' before. absolutely possible.

so I appologize if I offended anyone. but I would like to keep the conversation in terms of measurable benefit. and in order to do that, no I don't need to prove/disprove chi ...I just need visual aid to see someone do on video what you are suggesting is a 'first rung' to understanding this topic. I know if I could do it, I'd snap a 10 second shot for you to see what I'm talking about. The 10 seconds would tell me more than 10 pages of this thread.

until then, I really can't visualize it as anything other than theory. who knows...it might be the same as what I'm already training and therfore don't need to ask about it at all.

Top
#255088 - 11/05/06 02:46 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If you're going to quote something I said, then make sure I said it in the first place. The quote you highlighted is BP's...

Like I said, if the word "qi" circulation bothers you, don't use it. I think other substitute imagery is just as useful. BP used the word, because it is something he is comfortable with from his cultural context. I am Chinese, so I can appreciate the context as well. Doesn't mean I believe or disbelieve in it. That's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT logical argument. So, although he's using the term "qi circulation", I understand perfectly what he means, even though I wouldn't use it.

Let me ask you this instead.... just watching all the different people on YouTube doing sanchin - ones from the Fujian Crane traditions vs the various karate traditions, can YOU tell the difference? Can you see what's going on INSIDE?

Same with standing (zhan zhuang) exercises... can you SEE what's happening? Beyond merely "standing"?

How is a video going to help???

All BP and I are saying is that you are already practising this stuff - whether you realize it or understand it (or NOT). Just because someone uses a different term to describe what is being practiced doesn't invalidate the practice. Does it?

And all I have been saying is look at the core principles. Use whatever definitions or terms that work for you. The core principles are few, but they are exactly the same thing - different variations.

Top
#255089 - 11/05/06 03:17 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
iggy, I consider you a friend...thats why I'm not going to let you get away so easy

I know that was BP who I quoted...but you asked me:
Quote:

Since when did anyone here say anything about "belief" or believing in any of this???



and I assumed BP's words also fall into the 'anyone here' category. whew...another strawman evades certain death by chiball. lol sorry, had to throw some humor in.


Quote:


Here's a little experiment to see if you understand the "first rung"...

If you have a suspended heavy bag... walk up to it, place your hands on it and walk out forward until the bag is hanging at 45 degrees. Hold it there for 10mins without letting your deltoids burn.... if you can do that then try throwing the bag out forward WITHOUT MOVING your shoulders or arms.



THAT'S what I want to see on video. The bag on the chest I understand...I've done it before - it teaches you to lead with your hara while using gravity to sink thru the balls of your feet. thats a good exercise and I think I'd be surprized how many internal artists don't even understand that much on a physical level.

but the next part of throwing the bag has an external and visualy measurable effect....thats what I'd like to peep a clip of. can ANYONE on the planet do that 'first rung' as you described? is the question I'm calling out. If no one provides a clip of that, then I'll realize this whole conversation was just an esoteric intellectual examination of theory.

the question of can I tell from someone doing Sanchin? yes. to some extent I can. have a look at the feeding crane version sometime.

my guess is we won't get a clip in this thread. which would mean there is no 'first rung' that I'm not understanding.

but the good news is that I still see benefit with internal arts in terms of short-range power generation and evasion technique. yay! a happy ending!

Top
#255090 - 11/05/06 03:47 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ask Dan to show you the bag thing...

Top
#255091 - 11/05/06 12:24 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Lucid Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 213
Loc: TwinCities, MN, U.S.
Quote:

no, not trying to prove or disprove anything other than my point that constructs need not apply in order to 'get' these principles.

so I notice you didn't address this in your counter:
"In a sentence, it will never happen if you do not start with building up an AWARENESS of your 'chi' circulation to a degree where you can consciously circulate the chi deep into the tensed up muscles while moving around doing the sanchin kata and change the way they feel and behave."

I don't know eyrie, I think the fire went out on your torch to my 'strawman'. If thats not telling me 'believe in Chi or you can forget it' ...then I dont know what does.




You don't have to believe in it, you just have to give it a chance. After you spend enough time working with it, you will start to develope your own scientific theories about the phenomenon by testing and trial and error. Honestly, to a certain degree, both of you guys sound like you are way beyond me, but even I can come up with rational logical explanation (to a certain degree) about 'qi' and some vessles and meridians. No, I can't move a punching bag the way earie was talking about, but I have gotten stronger with weights while at the same time loosing muscle mass. All due to better biomechanics and more effficient energy system... And when I say energy system, I mean that I am not so dependant on the crebs cycle within the muscles anymore, and find other sources of power to aid my movement. All scientifically valid and grounded in reality, and yet, I haven't proven anything to anyone.

I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but here is a few theories on qi phenomenon I have been working with (and keep in mind, they are only theories, they are not claims)-

1. The path of least resistance and pressure. These are the main principles to the energy system. It is just like the two principles for generating an electical current, the path of least resistance (like the wire inside the rubber coating) and a source of pressure (voltage is electical pressure). The proper biomechanical structure opens the path of least resistance in the body, and pressure is channeled through it. Sources of pressure include ground reaction force, internal pressure (PSI) of inflated lungs, an attack from an opponent, a full bladder, tension from a muscle flexion is also directed like pressure (if you tense a muslce)..etc... There also are smaller scale sources of pressure, but I can't begin to describe how they would connect to the larger more scientifically accesible ideas for what could assist movement. The proper structure is what makes this possible, and also, the proper structure is the result of the above.

2.Anything that is within a magnetic field will have it's own magnetic feild. Earth has a magnetic field, so then you do too. A human magnet is weak and not even noticable. However, when the path of least resistance is open, and several EMP (electro magnetic pulse) sources are made available, the electro magnetic field becomes stronger and perhaps increases the ground reaction force pressure as well. Sources of EMP may include caloric energy, increased CNS activity (especially in concentrated points like the celiac ganglion, which may actually be the "jade ring" as spoken of in the tendon/muscle changes, I don't know). Remeber, anything that exists within a magnetic field has its own magnetic field, which means that every bone and every cell in your body has a magnetic field, and there may be other sources of EMP at all depths. I have no idea how the magnetic field would be a usable form of energy other than by converting it into pressure by connecting to the earth's magnet and combining into ground reaction force pressure... or something.

3.The system of channels and vessels provide a very important visualization tool. If you can move your body without closing off the vessels and meridians that you visualize, then you have moved your structure properly (I think). These vessels and channels + the way they connect to your organs...etc.. are like a map for your mind to follow in order to achieve proper movement. This, IMO, is essential in being able to let go of the western mindset of just muslces. If you see and feel the entire 'qi system' and move accordingly to it, then your mind is no longer on the muscles. Since your mind is no longer on the muscles, there is no tension in the muslces. This, I believe is what a large part of the mystery of 'moving with your qi' is about. Even if it was nothing more than an illusion, the illusion still may be neccesary to the process. If you have an idea of the kind of trouble an mental blockage can cause, then you will have an idea of how much good an efficiant mental visuallization can cause. Eventually, in your mind, your body becomes an efficient 'qi system' and not a grouping of muscles. I'm not saying the same movement can't be achieved by learning the proper muslces and structure, I'm just saying you won't learn it that way from an ancient martial arts system, because that's not how they achieved it.

But, alas, I still don't get it all. I've just spent plenty of time trying to rationalize it for my own western mind, and so I can hopefully help others get past their faith stumbling block. Like I said, you don't need to believe it, you just need to give it a chance... Unless you can find a guy like earie who can teach the whole thing just by explaining it in western toung and mind. The main thing I'm TRYING to show, is that the proper structure (what you have been understanding) is most certainly the easiest part for a westerner to understand, but that doesn't make the rest of it hocus pocus. It truly is a science without scientific terminology. You have to decode it for yourself by giving it a chance in your own practices, not by taking someone's word for it. If you do this, it won't be about believing in qi, it will be about realizing that qi explanations were nothing more than advanced scientific phenomenon utilization, with extrememly p1ss poor scientific explanation. Not every teacher needs to understand it scientifically to get results, so not every teacher will feel the need to explain it scientifically. And, some are probably frauds, but if they teach the structure and movement along with the 'qi stuff', then they are probably not frauds.

Top
#255092 - 11/05/06 01:57 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Lucid Warrior]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
appreciate your thoughts. I think however someone best gets a feel for improved/efficient dynamics, and if they can impress that vision in application, then it is valid for them. and no, they aren't necessarily frauds, but it's naive to think there aren't any either.

your points 1, 2 & 3 you are finding work for you, and thats all that matters. I might be wired differently - I can't give something 'a chance' that I really don't believe in by ignoring what I feel is being true to myself. and I assume everyone does the same...where we differ is our 'truths'.

for example:

your points: the terms you use are physics terms...pressure, current, force, energy ...etc. they have real meaning to me since I've studied them and how they are used in strict western physics definitions and use. when they are used in way you refer them to, they sound like impressions you have of whats going on - and if it helps you then it's valid. It's not for me to judge that (although as eyrie correctly pointed out my flaw in my often doing so ).

since I take terms like that literally from the way I think and the way I've been educated (engineering-no surprize there), then I have to accept it as the persons impression rather than 'fact'. and thats ok too. I get that. I try to visualize their impression they are trying to describe and then translate it into my own accepted visual.

[add] just re-read and it sounds as if I'm giving the impression I know all of the biochemical and physical goings on in the body ...I don't nor claim to. I'm just saying my impression is different (not more or less valid) when using those terms.[/add]

for instance, I know what you are saying about your 'magnitism' point. but have you read the studies on it? I have. and there is currently no basis (in science) for believing anything you've written in terms of magnatism as it relates to the human body - I see it as psudoscience - but I allow to read what people such as yourself write and try to realize it's your impression of whats going on. thats cool, but I can't accept it to be applied to myself while being honest.

have you heard of Kirlian photography ? it suppossedly is a photographic measure of chi/auras/EMF etc. but after detailed studies it is proven to actually be a very sensitive recording of moisture. knowing this, can I honestly still look at a kilarian photograph the same way? no, because my awareness of it has changed.

Bottom line is, this subject is a measurable cause and effect after training it for a certain length of time. efficient short-power can be demonstrated....as can it's claims. for those who are beyond the first rung of understanding it should be a peice of cake to demonstrate the effect at will. until then, like I said, I respect people's impressions, but they remain theoretical at best.

I think I'm going the correct route and following my instructor's lead....and I know he hits hard at short distances without using language to build constructs of it - the constructs are personal, feel how you will about it...meanwhile, "just go like this".

Top
#255093 - 11/05/06 06:54 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Lucid Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 213
Loc: TwinCities, MN, U.S.
Quote:

your points 1, 2 & 3 you are finding work for you, and thats all that matters. I might be wired differently - I can't give something 'a chance' that I really don't believe in by ignoring what I feel is being true to myself. and I assume everyone does the same...where we differ is our 'truths'.




My points have nothing to do with how well developed or underdeveloped my current theory on 'qi' is, my point is the concept of 'saying qi' is still useful, even if you have no idea of what it is. It's not a useful practice to get hung up on beliefs every time someone mentions the word 'qi'. You said you are wired differently, but rewiring yourself is a huge part of internal work. Iím not saying you need to accept one of my theories as truths, Iím saying you need to learn not to stumble over your belief/disbelief dilemma with the word qi. How can you disbelieve it when you donít know what it is that you are disbelieving in? That is why I am not asking you to believe it, I am asking that you give it a chance. If you do, then you can actually gain something more than frustration from BPís post. It's not his responsibility to cater to your hang-up, it's your problem.

How should I put this? Do you understand what a zen koan is? If you view the 'qi' dilemma as a zen koan, then you learn many things in the process of trying to figure 'qi' out. This is an excellent trick to írewiring yourselfí, enabling for you to benefit from posts like BPís. If you get all bothered every time you hear the word, then you have a mental blockage, a hang-up, and that is a problem because I donít know of any full internal system that has been fully studied and figured out by the scientific community. If you are only willing to go as far as science has proven, then you will not go all the way. Plain and simple, it is a lot easier if you can accept the word qi, even as only a zen koan. -A mystery for you to solve through daily training. I have never heard of anyone who understood the entire internal ma system before actually going through it. So you have to give something that you donít understand a chance if you are going to learn something new. Plain and simple. So think of the word qi like an x,y or z in algebra. You learn the values AFTER you solve the problem (zen koan).

It's like refusing to practice xingyi because you don't believe someone can turn into an animal. Xinyi has animal forms, and science shows that someone can't turn into an animal, so I guess it's not a real fighting system. You see what I did there? I decided that something I have no idea about is unreal, and I don't want to find out more about it because I don't believe it. Therefore, I will always think the animal forms in xingyi is bogus or that it is unnecessary to use animal terms to describe physical movements. The animal forms are the terms you learn in xingyi, and qi is a term you us in qigong and other gongs. I will never learn what the animal forms are without giving the animal forms a chance, same goes for anything else I donít understand. You learn these things by going through the step by step process, not by accepting somenone's theory on it, or by believing qi does or does not mean something. You are focusing on irrelevent things. "Qi exists, qi doesn't exist... I don't like the term... I need furthur explanation before I can believe it enough to accept it" All nonsense, either you go through the step by step or you don't. That simple. The language we use to describe the process or the phenomenon is irrelevent, and no one here will teach you the whole step by step process over the internet (you know that though).


Quote:

...when they are used in way you refer them to, they sound like impressions you have of whatís going on..




Absolutely, but itís easier if I just call it qi and stop over analyzing itÖ just train. Thereís no need to identify every sensation with science and proof, or even theories. You are following the lead of your teacher, and thatís exactly what gets it done, not beliefs. Will you quit under his guidance if tomorrow he says íqií?

About the human magnet thing, I'm not sure about any evidence that disproves the possibility is anything more than pseudoscience in itself. But that doesnít matter. I am speaking mostly about the thrusting routs and theory regarding it. If the magnetic theory is bogus, I'm still not going to stop training the thrusting routsÖ ..because I'm getting results. So what if I don't know why? Should I just say qi and look like a chi-baller? But thatís my point, if I say electromagnetism, you say it has been debunked. If I say qi, you donít like that either. Iím certainly not going to write a 300 page post about opening and training the thrusting routs for you, I'm not going to teach the step by step over the internet. ...but I also canít say Ďwell, you will never know until you feel it for yourselfí because you donít accept that either. I guess Iíll have to lie and say the thrusting routs donít exist, and there is no form of energy in the body that we can call qi, that way you can live in your comfort zone. No one can just 'explain' the whole thing.

I can call my shoe 'qi' if I want. Does that mean you don't believe in my shoe because you don't believe in qi? What do you think qi means? If you don't know, then how do you disbelieve it? I donít know what it means either, and thatís okay. I donít have to know something for it to be real, I donít even have to believe it. But if Iím going to benefit from the training related to it, I need to give it a chance. Hence me getting something out of ButterflyPalmís post, and you not getting anything but frustration from it.

Really, I donít see whatís wrong with the word qi unless it is used to deceive people.

I want to repeat again- Think of the word qi like an x,y or z in algebra. You learn the values AFTER you solve the problem

Top
#255094 - 11/05/06 07:11 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Lucid Warrior]
Lucid Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 213
Loc: TwinCities, MN, U.S.
BTW, I'd like to see a vid about the bag trick too. I know you said the shoulders don't move, but do the legs or anything else move? I'm just wondering if you are claiming that the bag moves by force dirrected only by internal movement without external movement, or if I missed something. Making a claim is a lot different than discussing theory or training methods. I want to see someone do this, because I must not be at the 'first rung' yet. I sure can't do it. The next step would be no touch ko, lol.

Maybe you need to re-explain it before we start expecting a fantastic vid from ya.... unless you really are going to show something like this...

Top
#255095 - 11/05/06 08:00 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Lucid Warrior]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I don't claim to teach the stuff... nor that I know everything there is to know about it. But I can show someone how to use the body in certain ways that would defy logical explanation. I try to explain as best I can... (without using the word "qi", usually in terms of physics, bio or visual imagery), but sadly I'm not entirely there myself.

Which is why I'm contributing to this thread, in the hope that someone more experienced can point out the discrepancies and maybe a few pointers.

On the bag "trick"... think ground force and pressure...

PS: Obviously SOME movement is involved, even required. The question is HOW MUCH and how obvious to the casual observer.


Edited by eyrie (11/05/06 08:50 PM)

Top
#255096 - 11/05/06 08:56 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Lucid Warrior]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yep...just train.

Quote:

PS: Obviously SOME movement is involved, even required. The question is HOW MUCH and how obvious to the casual observer.


I look at how much the bag moves in comparrison to how much the person moves. if it's a 1:1, then it's not special - a toddler could do it. If you move the bag twice as much as you have to move, then you're starting to get something interesting.

eyrie, let me ask you...if you can't do the 'first rung' of the test you offered me, and the other gentleman giving advice admittedly is just starting his internal 'journey'...what else is there to say on the subject? both of you need to train it more.

I'd say the thread is ALL theory unless someone is willing to show a clip. ...but I think I found what I was looking for - that I'm training the right way for what I'm trying to attain....I just need to train it more.

Top
#255097 - 11/05/06 09:50 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It's not that I don't want to put a vid up.... I just don't have the technology.... I'm also in the process of moving, as you know, so at the end of this week, I'll be saying goodbye to the gym where the heavy bags are...

But I have demonstrated it and showed some how to do it. And yes, I can throw it out some "distance" without much overt movement. Remember the bag is already at 45 degrees when I'm holding it. I can't throw it out past 90 degrees (yet), but is a 25-35 degree deviation good enough?

It also depends on how heavy the bag is too.... obviously a lighter bag is going to go higher. I'm not sure how heavy the bags are at the gym I train at, but I try to pick the heaviest one.

And yes, I definitely need to train more...

Top
#255098 - 11/05/06 10:04 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
that would certainly be incredable to see. too bad we probably never will though.

thanks for your effort in this thread eyrie...despite my hard-headedness in seeing the concepts and theories presented, I'm more sure now that I'm on the right track in what I'm trying to accomplish.

Top
#255099 - 11/05/06 10:23 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
That's what I've (and BP) been saying all along. You're already doing it, albeit, from the external Shaolin traditions. But sometimes your harda$$, pig-headedness gets in your way... but you have a good heart and I like you.

Right now I have bigger problems, like organizing DSL and moving... so training beyond the end of the week is unfortunately, the least of my priorities...

Top
#255100 - 11/05/06 10:45 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thanks again...hope the move goes well. (I patiently wait in this thread until eyrie has everything packed, takes his last look at the forums, realizes he's running late...and just then, I throw another zinger post at 'em. mwahaha)


Top
#255101 - 11/05/06 11:14 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
That'll be right...

I'm shutting down on Sat and flying out... so anything after Fri nite won't get answered till I'm back online... could be weeks...

The point I'm trying to make is that everyone is potentially capable of doing this stuff... to varying degrees. It's the "degrees" that I'm interested in, because that gives me something to work towards....

Top
#255102 - 11/05/06 11:49 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
how 'bout 'Nth degree' ...does that work for ya?

Top
#255103 - 11/05/06 11:57 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
ok, now ur being facetious....

Tell me... do you do hojo undo? Gripping jars, rolling stick, etc. etc.?

When you do hojo undo, how are you doing it? Describe in some detail what is going on. What are you focussing on in these exercises? What sort of mental imagery are you using? What muscles do you feel are being worked on and what does that feel like?

Top
#255104 - 11/06/06 12:48 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I grew up with all of usual: chishi, wristroller, beans, etc.

presently in class, it's not a usual class. no calestetics, no hojo undo, not many repitions, etc...it's purely an application study group - 80% 2-person work, 15% solo kata. 5% 'internal work' (gong li). everything else is assumed we do on our own. we do hojo undo informally before class.

at home, I only do two 5 or 10 minute hojo undo drills. Chishi and another(I don't know what it's called - it's for hand grip and forearm strengthening-I'll describe it sometime).

so I assume you are asking about chishi work. there are all sorts of drills for this. mostly it's about balance, posture, full range of motion with timed but natural breathing. I don't really know what I'm thinking, sortof nothing or drift. I don't even remember the first time learning chishi exercises...I just know their form.

the characteristic one is in horse stance with the weight straight out...move it slowly but evenly over the shoulder...then back out straight. inhale when going back...exhale going out. stance is fixed but not tense on the balls of feet - very slight forward. back and head straight. The key is full-range with even and controlled movement timed with breathing and correct posture.

why, what are you getting at?

Top
#255105 - 11/06/06 01:00 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
chishi is a good one. Let's talk about that...

Have you tried moving out on the inhale and withdraw on the exhale? When you breathe, what are you focusing on? It's simplistic to simply say "breathe in/out" - everybody does it. Do you apply any sort of internal locking for pressurization? Do you lift your knees? Tuck your tailbone? Feel the stretch in the legs? Feel the ground? When you hold your posture, where is the tension? When you move out, where is the tension?

Details... details.... as you can see, it's simplistic to describe what happens, or you can start to develop an awareness of what's going on within your body and structure as you're doing the exercise.

This is the difference and what I'm getting at....

Otherwise, it gets into the realm of "do this for another 20 years an maybe you'll get it" sort of thing.... see my point?


Edited by eyrie (11/06/06 01:20 AM)

Top
#255106 - 11/06/06 09:18 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
all the details I can't remember learning. I just do what feels right and just concentrate on the wholistic feel of it and not on details.

Top
#255107 - 11/06/06 10:07 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hmmm, I think you missed the point... where it says "share and contribute".

Top
#255108 - 11/06/06 01:25 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
how about I make a chishi video? lol

eyrie...I think I know where you are going, but if it's all the same, I'll just keep 'internal art' things as impressions instead of expressions. I know I'm doing these exercises correctly because they feel right...not from concentrating on of the minutae of details.

at some point I must have...but I seriously don't remember the details of how it was taught.

Top
#255109 - 11/06/06 03:14 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
Am I on track in interpreting that the bag exercise is developing maximum power with minimal effort at a short distance?
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#255110 - 11/06/06 04:06 PM Re: Neigong [Re: stormbringer]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
yup. dead on.

Top
#255111 - 11/06/06 04:10 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
Is this the theory behind the 1/4 inch punch?
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#255112 - 11/06/06 04:16 PM Re: Neigong [Re: stormbringer]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
no. this thread is about 1/4" blocks.

Top
#255113 - 11/06/06 04:19 PM Re: Neigong [Re: stormbringer]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It's not an exercise as much as it is a "test" of how developed your abilities are in sourcing the power from elsewhere other than the shoulder/arms.

That you can develop *some* short distance power thru seemingly "minimal" effort is a by-product of the real "exercise" that I am trying to get Ed to verbalize.

Top
#255114 - 11/06/06 04:23 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
In the bag exercise (which I don't have one and am trying to find a substitute), are you "channeling" the energy from other parts of your body, or using muscles from outside the arm/shoulders?
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#255115 - 11/06/06 04:27 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I know I'm doing these exercises correctly because they feel right...not from concentrating on of the minutae of details.




You sure about that? This coming from an engineer, with a background in reductionism and reductionist methodologies? LOL!

Quote:

at some point I must have...but I seriously don't remember the details of how it was taught.




I'm not asking you for a "Total Recall". I'm asking you to verbalize/externalize your "feelings". Probably very hard for you, no? LOL!

Top
#255116 - 11/06/06 04:33 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
actually, it is difficult - because first, they aren't 'feelings' since there is no emotion attached (maybe something difficult for you? lol)...like I said, there are impressions.

it's like asking me to describe what I'm focusing on while walking. ...usually anything other than the walking itself!

Top
#255117 - 11/06/06 04:39 PM Re: Neigong [Re: stormbringer]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

are you "channeling" the energy from other parts of your body, or using muscles from outside the arm/shoulders?




Holy Crap! "Channeling"???? Nope and Nope....

If you haven't got a heavy bag, try this instead:

1. Stand naturally, feet - shoulder width apart.

2. Get your partner to place their hand on the middle of your chest and push gently but continuously. i.e. not a shove!

3. IMAGINE your shoulder is where your partner has placed their hand, and your hand is where their shoulder is.

4. Allow the push to be absorbed into the ground.

5. Once you can do that without getting pushed over, see if you can redirect the push from the ground back to their shoulder and push them over.

BTW, it's the same principle as the bag "test".

Top
#255118 - 11/06/06 04:45 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

...it is difficult - because first, they aren't 'feelings' since there is no emotion attached...like I said, there are impressions.

it's like asking me to describe what I'm focusing on while walking. ...usually anything other than the walking itself!




OK, impressions then. Yep... like describing "walking". It's an "exercise" to connect your awareness of internalized movement.... try it.

Top
#255119 - 11/06/06 04:45 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
Would I shift my body weight to absorp the energy, or stand like a brick wall using muscles and energy to resist?
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#255120 - 11/06/06 04:54 PM Re: Neigong [Re: stormbringer]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Neither. It has to do with connecting your structure and using the ground. Pusher should feel like they are pushing against the ground.

Oh, and you should be somewhat "relaxed". (See Ed's previous post regarding being "relaxed").

Top
#255121 - 11/28/06 09:52 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
I'm reviving this thread because it's good and has a couple of points I would like some extra information on. The first one I can recall involved keeping the abdomen tight and still being able to breathe deep. I have a lot of difficulty with that technique, however, I believe it to be very useful and would like to develop it further. Do you have any info on it besides practicing breathing with my abdomen contracted?
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#255122 - 11/28/06 08:14 PM Re: Neigong [Re: stormbringer]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, what are you doing when you're doing "normal" breathing and "reverse" breathing?

Top
#255123 - 11/29/06 09:09 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
As far as normal breathing goes, I'm not keeping my abs tight while doing it. I'm not even sure what reverse breathing is about.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

Top
#255124 - 11/29/06 07:02 PM Re: Neigong [Re: stormbringer]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
OK, imagine your whole body is a balloon - like the Michelin Man. When you breathe in (normal breathing), expand your entire body (like you're filling it with air).

Imagine all the pores in your skin opening up to suck the air into your body. You should feel your abs and thoracic cavity automatically stretch to fill out.

Pause and hold your breath momentarily and engage the "3 locks". This pressurizes the breath in your lower thoracic cavity. Because internal pressure is involved, you want to ease off on creating too much tension or too high a pressure differential, lest you pop a capillary or 2. The idea is to SLOWLY build up the strength of your vascular system. i.e. breathe deeply, but "normally".

On the exhale, contract your abs and deflate your balloon body. You will soon notice that you have some control over your abs - like a bellow. That's why it's called abdominal breathing. Nothing special here - endurance athletes and singers learn to do this.

Reverse is exactly as it says - the opposite of abdominal breathing. Note the change in pressure differential and where in the thoracic cavity.

Obviously there's a lot more to it, (see preceding posts) but that'll keep you going for now.


Edited by eyrie (11/29/06 07:04 PM)

Top
Page 1 of 17 1 2 3 ... 16 17 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga