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#254957 - 05/17/06 10:49 AM Neigong
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I'm interested in learning more about this training method(s) ...what info can you share, other than the standard resources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A8ig%C5%8Dng

which are good starting points to learning more about it, but don't mention the physical training methods...only the inner/spiritual. but I'd like to hear your ideas on this.

I'm interested more in nči jėn and not so much fa jėn applications.

aka...'soft' and 'short' power generation/ body mechanics drills/exercises.

thanks,
-Ed

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#254958 - 05/18/06 06:39 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
was it a dumb question? or should this be moved to 'internal arts'?

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#254959 - 05/18/06 09:14 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
ShaolinNinja Offline
hates silicone bubishi

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 301
Loc: Ireland
It's not a stupid question, just a bit vague. What do you want to know? Neigong routines for physical conditioning?

In my experience, neigong is mostly used to prepare the mind before training - get rid of superfluous thoughts, raise body awareness and awareness of breathing and posture. It's not used for physical conditioning in my training.

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#254960 - 05/18/06 09:23 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
This should definitely be in the Internal Arts forum.

You might want to check out the standing post exercises:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang

Lam Kam Chuen's "Way of Power" is a good starting point for these exercises. But a lot of the "good stuff" is left out, so the intent of exercises are relegated to health maintenance and promotion.

The other slightly more in depth reference you might also want to check out is Liang Shou-Yu's "Qigong Empowerment". The martial application section of the book has some good pointers, but again, some "good stuff" is left out.

However, I think there is enough principle related material in both books, that if you know the "keys", it would be quite easy to make the connections.

All the best.

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#254961 - 05/18/06 10:16 PM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
You have been doing "neigong" for years and perhaps do not know or recognise it -- its Sanchin & Tensho.

The 'problem' is, it was and perhaps still is, taught as a pure physical conditioning routine with combat applications grafted on, and so the "internal" ('neigong') aspects got lost along the way.


When doing it, reduce your tension by half and instead of concentrating on the breath coming out of your mouth, internalise your thoughts and focus on your internal organs on the in-breath and imagine the breath coming out of your skin on the out-breath.

After some practice, you should notice that your body felt as if it 'shrinks' a bit on the in-breath and 'expands' on the out-breath. The 'shrinkage' will give you an awareness of your muscles squeezing on the bones. After more practice, you can hold the tension with any combat-body-configuration and still feel no strain whatsoever and to the on-looker, no apparent tension. So now you can truly fight with Sanchin.

And here is one little 'thing' you may wish to consider -- spend 5-10 minutes (whether sitting or standing) and just think or concentrate on your finger tips and while keeping that concentration, do the Tensho kata. When you are better, go up to the palm and eventually the whole body. At this stage, you will see Tensho and Sanchin in a whole new 'light' and then go back to read that little piece in Wikipedia again or any of those books Eyrie recommended. Reading them before will be guite meaningless to you.

Call me again in a couple of years' time. Meanwhile

Perhaps a little clearing up on "neigong" and "chigong"

About 40-50 years ago, the term neigong was more commonly used than chigong because the majority of practitioners were martial artists; neigong being internal training for martial arts application. Later as MA itself became less wide spread due to the influence of Western science and technology, people began to concentrate on the health by-product aspects of neigong and since it merely develops the chi without any martial arts application, chigong was used to distinguished it.

The common denominator is of course the development of the awareness of the dynamics chi plays in the body's processes; the point of divergence comes when the martial artists use this awareness for bone, tendon and muscle development and all these are then combined into one coherent practice when doing the kata; in your case the Seisan kata. The 'secret' is in the kata?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#254962 - 05/19/06 12:46 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Sorry Ed, I hesitated to mention the 2 kata BP mentioned...

Honestly, if you never knew what you're meant to be training, it is quite likely that you never trained it correctly in the first place and any side benefits you may have experienced have been quite accidental.

There are many ways to practice "neigong" (lit. internal work). Standing, kata/forms, ukemi, shiko (sumo stamping), spear thrusting, bokken cutting, yoga (done correctly)... and even makiwara - it's simply one of those "This is my preferred way to do it" things.

"Relaxing" is one of the keys. "Breathing" is another key. There are more little keys, and of course a LOT of plain old boring WORK.

The big question of course is WHAT you are meant to be training. "How" to do it is in the methodology. And the different methods are merely variations of the same core principles.

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#254963 - 05/19/06 01:18 AM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I want to frame this next question right...I'm going to work on the question over the next couple of days. thanks for your thoughts so far...keep an eye on this thread - I think it will develop into a good conversation.

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#254964 - 05/19/06 10:40 AM Re: Neigong [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You have to have eyes to see it, Ed.

Quote:

You have been doing "neigong" for years and perhaps do not know or recognise it -- its Sanchin & Tensho.



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#254965 - 05/19/06 11:56 PM Re: Neigong [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I had a thought out question I was developing with terms, jargon, fairly complex and obscure foreign concepts, etc... and after relating it to back my objectives, it gradually transformed back into a simple question. weird.

btw, thank-you for the replies thus far. before I ask the 'simple' question, this is how I view ki/chi:

These are my own words and concepts, so maybe I use ways of writing about this that are goofy.

I beleive ki is synergy ...not energy. Synergy in the combined effect of:
* center of gravity manipulation. (rooting/shifting)
---- balance in relation to self, ground and opponent.

* muscle group timing. (kime/focus, loose until impact)
---- This includes breathing, and thought/emotion rythyms.

* 3-dimensional space/time (positioning)
----- positioning relative to opponent in real-time.

This is ki/chi to me. I can see how thinking of all of these things in real time would be much easier to imagine it as 'energy'...but I think that's simply a shortcut concept and runs risk of being misinterpreted if the components aren't defined. I believe ki is non-linear...and therefore the shortest distance in moving ki between A to B is a curved path.

These ways of thinking about ki may have less depth than what you've been exposed to, but it fits into Goju principles nicely...now, if only I could DO it smoother.

which leads me to my question:


What solo drills can I work on to help me remove brute force intent?

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#254966 - 05/20/06 12:10 AM Re: Neigong [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
after writing that, I googled a combo of terms I chose to use and came up with here:
http://www.shugenkai.com/ki.html

Interesting.

seems I fall into the 'pragmatic', 'rational skeptic' category of the way I think of ki. lol no real surprize there for a Mr. Roboto.

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