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#253628 - 05/14/06 05:10 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
how about a TMAist who crosstrains MMA?

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#253629 - 05/14/06 07:43 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ronin,
what you describe is something that fits into the "stupid comes in all sizes" category. I can't believe anybody is stupid enough to be hit with a cattle prod during training, even if it was their parents teaching them... That's not "training", just abuse... and by the way, not one of the "old ways". It was an idiot that was teaching another group of idiots who were too dumb to protect themselves.

Since you didn't train "the old way", I find it interesting that you said "Older methods do not necessarily mean better, nor smarter". That would be based on what? Older training was structured, clearly defined, and designed to create martial artists that had particular skills from their art. It wasn't today's "a la carte" study, but an in-depth training program that taught clearly defined structures of training.

Ever heard of a particular "type" of karate? The four major styles in Japan were structured to teach their styles in the manner that developed certain distinguishable characteristics of their training. Shotokan is different from Goju ryu. Goju is different from Wado ryu, etc. Each style had a structure and a methodology of teaching... and I don't remember ever seeing any cattle prods used anywhere. That one comes from the eccentric uncle people keep locked in the basement.

Oh yes, the Okinawan styles were just as clearly defined, just in a different manner.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#253630 - 05/14/06 07:51 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
That's a good question, Ed.

The ones that I've seen "cross training in MMA" around here have all come from the "contemporary" Kempo school, and I haven't really seen any from traditional martial arts schools getting into that. The MMA guys in this area train right across the mats from us, and I can't remember ever seeing any TMA people training there. There are some in the OKU that are doing MMA, but they also come from the "contemporary" schools, not the traditional ones.



Edited by wristtwister (05/14/06 07:52 PM)
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#253631 - 05/14/06 07:52 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Wristtwister -

Quote:

Older training was structured, clearly defined, and designed to create martial artists that had particular skills from their art.




While I don't disagree with that assessment, that does not disprove Ronin1966's observation, either. Particular skills do not equal better fighter or even better method.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#253632 - 05/14/06 08:12 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Particular skills do not equal better fighter or even better method.





That was never part of the argument he made, but since you bring it up, the changes in styles were done in many cases because fighters doing one style of karate couldn't beat fighters of the same style, so they went "technique shopping" and developed other methods. While they were "different", they were still traditional methods found in the schools of Japan and Okinawa (and often, China) that were adopted and ingrained into the school's training. That's why there were so many different types of the same style of karate, where one teacher might stress kicking techniques, another might stress punching, etc.

The best analogy is weightlifting... while we all don't lift the same amount, some lift more using different techniques, but they still pick up the weight from their grip on the bar. They move their feet, use their backs, legs, and arms to lift. Some lift without stopping, others stop at their shoulders and then press the weight up.

Did the changes make them better fighters? I would assume they thought so...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#253633 - 05/15/06 07:13 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: Ed_Morris]
jliu Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 66
Loc: Montville, NJ, USA
My sensei used to reminisce about the "good old days" when you could go full contact sparring and bounce people off walls and stuff. Too bad lawsuits and insurance costs put an end to that.

To be honest though, I do sort of long for those "good old days." In my opinion, lots of the martial arts have been sporterized and some dojos that I've visited lack enthusiasm and intensity.

I agree with you on the issue of smarter vs. harder...Hard work will get you far, but using your head will get you much farther. e.g: walking through a wall and walking AROUND a wall lol
_________________________
Pain is weakness leaving the body.

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#253634 - 05/16/06 12:35 AM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: wristtwister]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Wristtwister:

Crazy, insane, moronic... those labels could describe any of us likely at any time depending upon ones particular mind set & perspective? The ancient past or today. As I was not "there", I too can only be agape (regardless of what they did or did not do with the thing). I would not partake in that myself...

And yet consider some do stupid, insane things to their hands in order to "toughen them". Others receive powerful blows, beatings in truth to toughen themselves for some personal "reality" rarely ellaborated. There is a decent list of "classical" practices which might easily be explored carefully and find modern expressions perhaps.

<<"Older methods do not necessarily mean better, nor smarter". That would be based on what?

Please permit me to clarify... Merely because something is a "tradition" does not automatically mean it is/was a good idea. Merely because something might indeed be ~old~ doesn't retroactively mean it was then or now a great way to achieve "X" goal.... Better?

<<Older training was structured, clearly defined, and designed to create martial artists that had particular skills from their art.

I've hopefully clarified my meanings to some degree I hope, care to take a shot at yours?

<<I don't remember ever seeing any cattle prods used anywhere.

Well I could show you a documentary of a fellow hitting a turn of the century iron choo-choo train with spooky power repeatedly (Someone get the fellow a ticket, pretty please....). I could produce written stories of now famous practitioners going off into the mountains, virtually naked, and with little food to practice and explore their skills. Forgive me if I find the ~cattleprod bizarreness~ not entirely without some decent precidents...

<<Oh yes, the Okinawan styles were just as clearly defined, just in a different manner.

There are hundreds of assorted arts. All of us have assorted receipes for eggs, bread (ie power, etc.)... its always a question of the presentation at the end of the day. Who can pass along their understanding of this proverbial cooking process. Once I have delicious simple receipes what do I do with that knowledge, understanding?
I do not deny many arts may indeed (then or now) provide wonderful answers in terms of "clear definitions". Yet it appears many flavors of them indeed exist and have for a time... what happens if these new receipes were not "shopping" simply a different preference of flavoring?

Please find no offense at my response, none were intended as such...

Jeff

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#253635 - 05/16/06 12:49 AM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: Ronin1966]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Good post Ronin!!

Quote:

Crazy, insane, moronic




You rang?

If we want to live in the past so be it,but I prefer to live the now and look to the future hopefully improving along the way.

Teach your students so that they are better than you 'were'.That's how it should be.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#253636 - 05/16/06 06:58 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: BrianS]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"Teach your students so that they are better than you 'were'.That's how it should be."

Best thing I've read so far.

The worst thing about comparing "now and then" is that it can never be decided.
Having said that, in virtually every endeavour you can think of mankind have improved over time. (I use the word improved in a sense of faster, stronger etc.)
So we must be doing something right.
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http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#253637 - 05/16/06 10:55 PM Re: The 'good ol days' ? [Re: McSensei]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

"Teach your students so that they are better than you 'were'.That's how it should be."





I think that any teacher or sensei worth his salt is training with that goal in mind. My teachers over the years have all told me to "extend yourself", and go that one step further than you think you can. Working toward improvement is the only way to work toward "perfection".

I suppose that most of us loved "the good old days" because we were young, could go wide open and then go again the next morning. Now, we have to rest up to go again...
We DID fight full contact a lot of times... I guess our lack of technique was what kept us from getting killed in a lot of cases. It WAS fun to kick somebody and have them slam into the wall and then come back and do the same thing to you. Our bruises were badges of courage.

Unfortunately, we can't take you back to "the good old days"... there is only today, and possibly tomorrow. For those of you who have just started training, these ARE "the good old days". I just hope you enjoy them as much as those of us did before martial arts was so commercialized and "organizationalized". We didn't have websites to do virtual martial arts, and we respected people because they shared knowledge with us, took our abuse, passed out their own, and we both trained with the bruises we left on each other and were good friends.

Our dojos were sometimes an open space in the back yard, or in a garage... not the big McDojos of today with loud music, walls of mirrors, and six year old black belts. Respect wasn't something taken lightly, and argument wasn't something tolerated. Even today, I wouldn't say to any sensei some of the things I've seen said here... and protesters were people who got locked out of the training session.

It was good; it was wholesome; and it was personal to everyone who took part. It was more than "something to do", it was a mission. We didn't work out just while the classes were in session... they took up most of our time away from school, work, or family. When we got a chance to see somebody doing another style, everybody dropped what they were doing and went to learn something...

There were no contracts... teachers taught because they loved the martial arts and were eager to "pass it on" to others. Tournaments didn't give trophies, they gave bruises, and being the best one there that day was more than enough.

You're right... we can't take you back there.
Do us "old timers" miss them... Hell yes...
It defined a lot of things in life that you guys growing up in the virtual world will never know.

I've still got "Black Belt" magazines that don't have website addresses or 800 numbers in any of the advertisements... and kata was for sale... on 8mm movies.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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