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#253452 - 05/11/06 06:03 PM Strength, Endurance, and Mass...
Ethanael Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 92
As I understand it, reps in the 1-5 range will increase strength primarily, with little impact on mass and none on endurance.

I also understand that high-rep will increase endurance, and should not increase mass very much, if at all.

Is it possible to perform reps in the 1-5 range on Monday for pure strength, and perform reps in the 20-30+ range on, say, a Friday, to increase endurance primarily, and not gain much mass, at all?

I want to avoid mass, but I want to gain strength and endurance. Is there a way?

Or, if I were to do kickboxing, and I were to do lots and lots of repetitions of drills, and were to also do high intensity, 1-5 rep strength training once or twice a week, would I gain mass? Would I gain strength? What about endurance? I would think that I would gain strength, minimal mass, and probably endurance from the high repetitions of the kickboxing drills.

I've looked in quite a few places, no information that could be applicable...

Thanks.
Ethan.
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#253453 - 05/11/06 07:16 PM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: Ethanael]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
That's a fine way to go. Strength workouts with 1-5 reps, I'd say for 2-3 sets, and endurance workouts on, I'd say thursday.
For strength, do multiple muscle, compound exercises like squates, deadlifts, benchpresses, seated rows, military presses, power cleans, push presses, clean and jerks, and things like that.
For endurance do more like 30-50 reps, with a lot of pushups, sit ups, pull ups, parallel bar dips, bodyweight squats and the like. Do them in multiple sets if you can't do them all at once.
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#253454 - 05/11/06 07:20 PM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: Ethanael]
Blindsided Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 217
i do 5x5 for my weight lifting usually and everynow and then i feel like doing lesser weight more reps for endurance. i guess it depends where you want ur endurance. kick boxing is sure to give ur arms and legs more endurance. if u want overall endurance running is prob your best bet. strenght training will make you stronger of course, im sure you will gain size if you lift weights but it shouldnt be to bad

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#253455 - 05/11/06 07:37 PM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: Blindsided]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
If you want to gain strength without size, read Pavel Tsatsoulines books. Go to his site on Dragondoor.com. There lot's of good stuff on there for just that.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#253456 - 05/11/06 08:02 PM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: Ethanael]
ShaolinNinja Offline
hates silicone bubishi

Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 301
Loc: Ireland
You have a good handle on it, Ethanael. However, you'll probably want to lift more often than twice a week. Gaining strength without size is basically motor learning (gaining 'skill-strength'), and the more frequently you practise something, the better you get at it. You wouldn't try to learn juggling, or guitar, or martial arts by training once or twice a week, nor should you try to gain strength that way. You should lift four or five times a week. One set of five, five days a week is a program I have used with success for the same goals.
Your kickboxing will give you cardiorespiratory endurance, but you won't gain much muscular endurance without high-rep resistance training. For endurance without mass, the rule of thumb is to keep the reps above 25.
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#253457 - 05/11/06 09:00 PM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: ShaolinNinja]
Ethanael Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 92
Thanks for the responses.
One problem: I haven't had any instruction in Olympic-style lifts, and I don't want to risk injury. How safe are they, and how effective are they?

And as for my strength/endurance routine, how would this do for increasing strength and endurance without mass?:
---
5 curl with 30lbs / side
5 bent arm dumbbell lifts with 50lbs / side
5 forearm curl with 30lbs / side
5 wrist curl with 50lbs / side
5 dumbbell press with 60lbs
5 shoulder shrug with 50lbs / side
10 lunges with 80lbs
10 calf raises with 80lbs

15 pullups
40 knuckle pushups
50 lunges
30 finger pushups
---

The above is completed with no breaks, except, maybe, a water break in between the weights and the bodyweight exercises. Any suggestions are appreciated. I've got no problems incorporating different kinds of lifts.

Thanks.
Ethan.
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#253458 - 05/12/06 02:55 AM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: Ethanael]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
shaolin ninja and i have differing training philosophies from time to time, doesnt make either of us right or wrong,as the old saying goes there are many ways to skin a cat.
Here is my take on your situation.

firstly, we need to know your exercise experience, any medical issues including injuries, and what equipment you have access to. Do you have a spotter, or training partner? do you train in a gym, or at home?
Without such info we are all flying blind.

in principle 5 reps per set, completed explosively, and stopping just short of complete fatigue each set is perfect for strength. By using compound lifts only- squat, bench press, deadlift, overhead press, pullovers,and rows, you will create an auxilliary improvement in heart function/power also.
Frequency will be dependant on your experience, your personal situation (not everyone is lucky enough to be able to train everyday), and the volume decided upon.

high rep weights for endurance I simply dont agree with. i am not saying that it cant work, but it more often than not leads to joint issues and tendonitis, as well as being extremely time consuming and inneficient.

for endurance i would rely on dynamic HIIT rather than standing there for an hour arm curling a couple of biscuits

a HIIT session could look something like this

5x jumping squat-100m sprint- 10x squat thrust- walk return
Repeat this 5 times

5x1 min all out jab/cross combo on heavy bag (every punch must 'pop', technique remaining good) 1 min rest between rounds

6x1 min all round kick on heavy bag (alternate striking leg each round, again fast and hard as possible with good technique) 1 min recovery between rounds

3x1 min speed skipping including knee tuck doubles.

Getting used to using a consistent level of power while working at a prolonged high heart rate will serve you well in your MA, the above will do this, whilst using the body in functional and pastime specific movements.

Try both kinds of training, see which suits you/works best for you, you will need to give each at least 8 weeks consistent application to make a judgement.

When doing SN's high rep circuits, stick with big compound movements- wrist curls will do absolutely ZERO for your endurance.
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#253459 - 05/12/06 07:47 AM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: Cord]
Ethanael Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 92
I have no medical problems. I broke an ankle a few years ago, but it's in better condition now than it was before I broke it.
I train at home, but I have access to weights and punching bags, and some other equipment.

My dad could spot me if I needed him to.

Hmmm...I guess what I have is alright, then?
I do a lot of HIIT on other days for anaerobic capacity.

Oh, yeah. I also do similiar all-out sets to the ones that you're doing. They're awesome.

One more question: does the muscular endurance gained from dynamic HIIT carry over to other things besides the kickboxing? If I trained for a long time with dynamic HIIT for kickboxing, and I found myself in a position where I needed to be able to carry something for long distances, or run for long distances, or sometihng like that, would I be better off? Aside from sport-specific conditioning and strength, I'm also looking for endurance for, say, survival in potentially hostile environments. There's no reason for me to need this kind of training at the moment, but why not, right?--especially if it is included in or can be incorporated into my regular regimen.

Sincerely.
Ethan.


Edited by Ethanael (05/12/06 08:29 AM)
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#253460 - 05/13/06 01:51 PM Re: Strength, Endurance, and Mass... [Re: Ethanael]
Alex89 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
If you want to gain strength and endurance, you should do the 5 sets of 5-6 reps for strength, and practice martial arts on your punching bag and go to martial art classes, also shadow boxing is great for endurance. That's what I'm doing right now and I've gained a lot of strength (for the benchpress I went up to benching 120 pounds to 190 in 3 and a half months), and my endurance is really good. What I also do, is that on sundays I do 3 sets of 30 reps of close grip push ups for endurance. Hope that helps.

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