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#252986 - 08/30/06 12:05 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
There will always be criminals if there's money to be stolen, but that's not the fault of government... it's people's individual choices that make them crooks. As for the tax avoidance "schemes", it's a matter of how you handle your money... not how much you have. Anybody in America can start a business and utilize the tax breaks available to them.

One of the great misconceptions in this country is that our constitution is a "bill of rights"... it's a document directed at allowing government to tax trade and establish treaties. The bill of rights was an afterthought (and a damn good one), but the constitution itself is primarily a taxing authority document that shows how businesses should be set up and taxed.

Most of our problems are from corporations outside the U.S. that come in and suck the wealth out of our industries and then shut them down when their markets fail. If we actually had "fair trade" it would be different, but profiteers are profiteers... and we just keep electing people too stupid or self-centered to protect American interests. Our border with Mexico is a prime example...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#252987 - 08/30/06 01:48 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by WT -

Quote:

and we just keep electing people too stupid or self-centered to protect American interests.




Well, I will certainly agree on that one.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252988 - 08/30/06 10:30 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Matt,
the perfect ballot would have "none of the above" on it, which would force some of these politicians to make the right choices. We keep electing the same people back to office and getting the same results... and there's not really much difference in the actions between donkeys and elephants... but if "nobody" was elected to represent the district, pretty soon, somebody would get the message that what they do up there does matter, and that people hold them responsible for it. The way the system works right now, once somebody gains a seat in congress or the senate, they are almost invincible unless they murder their grandmother under a streetlight in front of a crowd of reporters... and only then if they don't have a good story to sell to the media...

I didn't elect any of these people to have them direct the border patrol to stop doing it's job... or the courts to stop prosecuting certain crimes... and I'm mad as hell about it, but just being mad doesn't solve the problem. You have to mobilize people to make elected representatives know what the public sentiment is... and more than just "saying so"... it has to be expressed at both the ballot box and in the press. I might be too old to make a good protester, but I write a mean letter to the editor... and if I can't get one printed, I can buy the space to print it privately by buying ad space.

None of that has to do with which state I live in, or whether or not I live in the Bible-belt... it has to do with choices that should be politically made that are correct but aren't...

You can't tell 15 million people to ignore our laws and reward them with amnesty, food stamps, free medical care and citizenship, and then tell the rest of our society to follow the law and expect them to do so. If people are getting hosed in this country, it's because they don't enforce their will on their elected representatives... and they know that election day is less than 90 days away.

Even as an "election organizer", I don't tell people how to vote... only to vote in people who will do the right things for our country. If you listen to the media, America is the harbinger of every sin in the world, but they never give credit for doing anything good... but they are quick to take sides against us and side with terrorists, who have learned to play them like a violin. If ANY of our politicians would learn that Americans expect better of them, they would get better results... so like your tag line says... if you want better results, look in the mirror.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#252989 - 08/31/06 12:06 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by WT -

Quote:

We keep electing the same people back to office and getting the same results... and there's not really much difference in the actions between donkeys and elephants...




I really do agree with you there. Only the fringes are different (sort of; they're both crazy) - the rest of them are business as usual.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252990 - 08/31/06 12:07 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I say...'Elect Me for President'. I promise to be a beneficent dictator.

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#252991 - 08/31/06 07:48 PM How about wartime pay caps on profiteers? [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
What did Rhett Butler say? 'There's more money to be made in war, and the downfall of a civilization, than the building of one'?


http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editori...?p1=MEWell_Pos4

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#252992 - 08/31/06 10:05 PM Re: How about wartime pay caps on profiteers? [Re: harlan]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Harlan, this isn't directed at you, but I read that tripe article you linked... this is my response...


"MORE THAN 2,600 US soldiers have died in Iraq."

No question there… and more people are killed riding motorcycles in America each year than have been killed in Iraq in the two years of war…

"Iraq's civil war is on pace to kill 25,000 to 30,000 civilians by year's end."

First of all, there is no civil war in Iraq… there is a counter-insurgency that is fueled by every Muslim terrorist country in the region. The Sunni’s and Shites have been doing battle since the 7th century, so this isn’t anything new… but characterizing it as a “civil war” is very simply lying through your teeth.

"All of this madness to stop a madman, Saddam Hussein."

What madness are you speaking of? This is a military action to enforce UNITED NATIONS resolutions that were not being enforced by the body that issued them… 17 of them, if I remember correctly.

"The litany of US mistakes and excessive force has the Pentagon commissioning at least two secret strategy studies in Afghanistan and Iraq."

What “excessive force” is being referred to… having superior weapons and better soldiers? The only mistake that has been made in Iraq is in allowing reporters to be imbedded with the troops and getting immediate mischaracterizations of the events and facts.

"There is no evidence of a contractor having a soul in the 13th annual Executive Excess CEO survey by the Institute for Policy Studies, a progressive think tank, and the Boston-based United for a Fair Economy."

And what does that have to do with anything? The “progressive think tank” is primarily a pro-communist front organization, as is the Boston-based “United for a Fair Economy”. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows that companies are in business to make money. There is not one thing that requires them to “have a soul” or only make a profit if it’s “fair” to their competition or whoever the communists think should have equal shares of their effort.

"``Did this surprise us? No, because we've been watching since Sept. 11," said Betsy Leondar-Wright, communications director for United for a Fair Economy."

No, It doesn’t surprise anyone… so what’s your point? It’s easy to sit back and criticize from afar in a soviet-style ‘think tank’ while someone else does all the work and takes all the risks… i.e., soldiers, government contractors, aid agencies. What exactly does “United for a Fair Economy” have invested in the war… other than criticism of the American economic system?


"``While the rest of us were worrying about terrorism and mourning the people who died, the CEOs were maneuvering their companies to take advantage of fear and changing oil supply, not just for competition but for personal enrichment.""

That makes me feel great as an investor… I’d want the S.O.B. fired if he was looking to subdivide the profits of the company with “everyone” as UFE suggests…

"The pay gap between the average oil and gas CEO and the average oil worker is 518 to 1."

And the pay gap between “think tank members” and the average oil worker is ??????????????

"The report said ``democracies decay when one segment of society flourishes at another's expense." Leondar-Wright said, ``It is now at the point where we have lost any sense of proportion. There is no sense of shared sacrifice, no sense that we're all in this together."

I couldn’t agree more… when one segment attempts to usurp the hard work rewards of one sector of society and distribute them to the non-worker classes, the society goes into the toilet. The sense of proportion that is lost is that work is required to make money, and those that don’t take part in the operations don’t deserve one red cent of the profits of anything done to support the troops, the war, or the businesses that are contracted to go into the war zone and conduct business…. But since you mention the “sense of shared sacrifice”… what has UFE contributed to the war effort other than criticism?

My Commentary:

As the son of a soldier who died in service to the American ideal, it is both offensive and slanderous of those taking advantage of their freedoms to deface America with their tripe and lying accusations. If you think America is such a bad place, it’s clear that the borders are open, so take a hike... and go wherever you feel more comfortable… there are hundreds of third world countries where you can go … but you’ll have to learn to shut your mouth, because you can’t slander the country there and be allowed to live.

You’ll need to get all your praying done before you leave as well. Many of them don’t allow freedom of religion, but since you’re so insincere about everything else in life, I don’t think that will be a problem.

Unless you go to Europe, you won’t have the government handing out a living to you, unless you join their military, and if you’re sincerely disgusted with the actions of American soldiers in defense of our country, you’re going to fail right out of the box in attempting to “do your duty” for a third world army. The African nations are really good at enforcing military rule in places like Somalia and Darfur… but you might starve to death if you’re in the wrong warlord’s group.

Since you have an issue with how much money is made by legitimate businesses during wartime, why not agree to work for free in your new country? I’m sure you would be welcomed warmly…

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#252993 - 08/31/06 10:39 PM Re: How about wartime pay caps on profiteers? [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by WT -

Quote:

First of all, there is no civil war in Iraq…




While you may be technically correct in the sense that a civil war has not been declared, even the top American military people agree that all-out civil war is a likely possibility, and that what is going on now could be considered the precursor.

Quote:

"All of this madness to stop a madman, Saddam Hussein."




My question is not why are we there - my question is why did we not finish "stomping Saddam's guts out" (to paraphrase the DI in "Full Metal Jacket") back in 1991. Or the numerous violations (firing at Allied air patrols, etc) that occurred after leaving SH in power after Gulf War 1.

Plenty of LEGIT reasons to do the job then, and with international backing - unlike the ineffective arm-twisting that was done to create the current "allied" force.

Quote:

There is no evidence of a contractor having a soul in the 13th annual Executive Excess CEO survey by the Institute for Policy Studies, a progressive think tank, and the Boston-based United for a Fair Economy.




Communists or no, certainly a democratic and free-market oriented person like yourself would have to question the MANY no-bid contracts that were awarded to Haliburton and other FOC's (friends of Cheney). Those types of actions certainly make this ring very hollow:

Quote:

when one segment attempts to usurp the hard work rewards of one sector of society and distribute them to the non-worker classes,




Seems like a lot of usurping going on in the other direction to me.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252994 - 08/31/06 11:17 PM Re: How about wartime pay caps on profiteers? [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Matt,
I agree that there are other viewpoints, but the one question that keeps surfacing to me is "who has the facilities and abilities to do the job that Halliburton is doing in Iraq if they don't do it?" The correct answer there is "nobody"... so those opposed to anything supporting the war effort paint a target on "no bid contracts" and the like to make it sound like something is being stolen from somebody... it isn't...

There isn't another company in the world with the resources and experience to do what Halliburton is doing in Iraq and Afghanastan to rebuild infrastructure. While there are a lot of companies that can do it "stateside", they can't function in a war zone, and don't have the corporate will to go into war zones and do that work.

It's easy to sit in your nice, comfortable chair and criticize that work, but it's a little different when you're sitting in a tent in the desert dodging insurgent attacks while trying to rebuild somebody else's country. I was offered multiple jobs in the Middle East, but it didn't take anything other than the Ayatollah Khomeni's little takeover of Iran to show me what the $10,000 per month would be spent on... bomb shelters and armament... My friends that went there were lucky to come back alive... and not one of them has any desire to go back...

While everybody has a lot of criticism, I don't see many answers of how to do it better coming out... and I, for one, do not criticize a guy who's building a barn unless I've been helping... If I think he's wrong and I've got time invested in it, I can criticize... but armchair quarterbacking is easy. Why, because you never have to get in the game and do it yourself...

If the war in Iraq and Afghanastan is lost, you'll get your chance to get in the game... but over here instead of over there... Criticism always depends on whose ox is getting gored...

I don't have any ax to grind with anyone... I just don't like to have the truth twisted and misrepresented the way the press has reported this war. Calling these terrorists "freedom fighters" and charaterizing the inter-religious conflict as a civil war is pure b-s. It's a power struggle, and the press is too stupid or misdirected to even see the truth, much less report it accurately.

... and by the way... civil wars aren't fueled, funded, and armied by people outside of the country... civil wars are fought by the people who actually live there. This is a war that is being funded and fueled by Iran, Syria, and every other two-bit collection of despots in the Middle East.

Calling them "freedom fighters" is like giving Jeffrey Dahmer an award for population control...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#252995 - 08/31/06 11:49 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: wristtwister]
rideonlythelabel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
Quote:

No question there… and more people are killed riding motorcycles in America each year than have been killed in Iraq in the two years of war…




Well, I guess that suddenly makes all of the soldiers' death insignificant.

Did you know that they estimate the total number of people to have ever died to 100 billion? What does it matter you ask? Precisely nothing.

So what if more people die riding mortorbikes than going to war? Every death is a tragedy in itself, regardless of the number of people who die while riding motorbikes.

And what about all the thousands of civilians that died? Don’t give me this B.S. about smart bombs, even the most conservative estimates are in the tens of thousands. Of course, it’s likely that more of them were killed by the insurgents and the criminals than the US army. That do not make them any less dead. Who knows how many would have died under Saddam’s regime? Maybe more, but probably less.

Quote:

If you think America is such a bad place, it’s clear that the borders are open, so take a hike... and go wherever you feel more comfortable… there are hundreds of third world countries where you can go … but you’ll have to learn to shut your mouth, because you can’t slander the country there and be allowed to live.




So, is there freedom of speech in the U.S. or not? Cause according to you it seems one has to leave if he is expresses discontent with the government.

Quote:

Most of our problems are from corporations outside the U.S. that come in and suck the wealth out of our industries and then shut them down when their markets fail.




Are you for or against free trade, in the end? U.S. corporations make a lot of money in other countries, money that is spent in the U.S. by the U.S. owners, sucking wealth out of other countries and bringing it into the U.S. By the way, this is true of every industrialised country, not just the U.S., but you still have to choose, for or against free trade, cause you can't have the butter and the money.

Quote:

There is not one thing that requires them to “have a soul” or only make a profit if it’s “fair” to their competition or whoever the communists think should have equal shares of their effort.




Contradict yourself much?

Quote:

What “excessive force” is being referred to… having superior weapons and better soldiers? The only mistake that has been made in Iraq is in allowing reporters to be imbedded with the troops and getting immediate mischaracterizations of the events and facts.




That's convenient. Every pro-war article is the objective truth, while every anti-war one is nothing more than left-wing propaganda.

Those massacres never happened did they? And neither did the human rights violations in the prisons?

You're right, it was a huge mistake to let the people have access to information.

Quote:

foreign corporations that are taking the wealth of this country and returning nothing except a higher trade deficit for our good will.




Astronomic war spending is in no way responsible for the massive deficit. It's the foreigners' fault.

Quote:

Anybody in America can start a business and utilize the tax breaks available to them.




Yeah, except that you need money to start a business.

Quote:

What madness are you speaking of? This is a military action to enforce UNITED NATIONS resolutions that were not being enforced by the body that issued them… 17 of them, if I remember correctly.




You're warping the facts. No U.N. resolution ever approved of the war. In fact, the war is a breach of international law (not that anybody is going to do anything about that). It's true though that there could not be an U.N. resolution approving of the war is because France said they'd use their veto against it.

By the way, I'm not anti-US, there are arguments to be made in favor of American policies, it's just that your posts were so one-sided that I had to play devil's advocate.

Blablablabla you know exactly what is happening in the US and the entire world? The strong are screwing the weak over. It's the way it's always been, in every country, since the first man picked up a rock to smash his competitor's skull. The US is not better or worse than any other country, it's humanity as whole that is a steaming pile of s--t. And I'll include myself in that.
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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