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#252896 - 07/23/06 04:36 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Good for you Jkogas, and you know what, I practice kata all the time and I've only become a better fighter. Kata isn't meant to make you a great fighter, it's meant to teach you the techniques and principles required to be a great fighter. You then need to put those techniques and principles into practice through "live" training. Just because YOU or a few of your friends are decent fighters without kata doesn't mean kata is no good and is worthless. I train live all the time and I use kata, and I'm an excellent fighter. Nobody is claiming that kata practice alone makes you a good fighter, it's just ONE of the many tools you can use. Stop trying to shove oyur way of thinking down our throats, maybe your way isn't THE way or just isn't right for us.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252897 - 07/23/06 07:45 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Stormdragon wrote
Quote:

Good for you Jkogas, and you know what, I practice kata all the time and I've only become a better fighter.




Quote:


Kata isn't meant to make you a great fighter, it's meant to teach you the techniques and principles required to be a great fighter.





So apparently, youíve become a great fighter in SPITE of your having practiced kata.


Quote:


You then need to put those techniques and principles into practice through "live" training. Just because YOU or a few of your friends are decent fighters without kata doesn't mean kata is no good and is worthless.




Itís a few more than just me and a ďcoupla friendsď.

However, the fact that one can become a competent fighter WITHOUT kata, only proves that it isnít necessary - which has been the only point that Iíve been making.


Quote:


I train live all the time and I use kata, and I'm an excellent fighter. Nobody is claiming that kata practice alone makes you a good fighter, it's just ONE of the many tools you can use.





Youíre sort of making my point in that sentence whether you realize it or not.

There are only so many hours in a day that you can train (unless you have a trust fund and donít have to work). With so many tools available, taking the more efficient of them becomes important (to some of us). I prefer to develop a personís skill as quickly as possible and see no reason for delaying that whatsoever. Thereís just no point.


Quote:


Stop trying to shove your way of thinking down our throats, maybe your way isn't THE way or just isn't right for us.





Hey StormdragonÖ.take a look at the thread title there bro. Whatís it say? By the way, you should know because YOU'RE the one who created it.

So that's what I'm doing.

And since when has expressing oneís opinion become ďshoving your way of thinking down your throatsĒ? If YOU feel that is whatís happening, perhaps you should do some soul searching. Maybe what Iím saying is hitting a nerve for a reason.

Youíll notice that I always say whatís on my mind. I try and be respectful yet honest with my opinion. I also say that if you enjoy something, that you should do it. However Iím NOT going be a member of this or any OTHER forum and see people say that kata is a necessary element in the development of a competent fighter. Thatís complete nonsense in my opinion. Not one person has made a credible argument otherwise.




-John

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#252898 - 07/23/06 09:16 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So your saying that some of the greatest fighters in history such as Mas Oyama, Choki Motobu, Bushi Matsumora, etc. didn't get their skills from kata when that is about 80% of what they did along with striking the makiwara post, punch bags, and so on? Mas Oyama and many fighters he trained defeated many muay thai fighters and even took a championship with them before. Kata and prearranged sparring was a staple of their training.
In fact, why the hell does anyone practice kata anymore if it's so worthless...? I only invest in training methods that will make me a more effective fighter and to further my practical fighting knowledge. If kata was worthless I wouldn't bother with it.
Kata is a compendium of the most effective techniques and tactics known by various masters and experts throughout history and were designed to give a person practical fighting skills that would work in real situations. Why would they do that if kata is worthless? Kata gives you the knowledge needed, and you then must take that knowledge and practice it live, which is where that form of training comes in, so yeah it's not requierd but it does a lot of good. Ask any traditional martial artist on here.



[edited for excessive quoting
-Joel]


Edited by JoelM (07/24/06 12:29 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252899 - 07/23/06 10:05 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


So your saying that some of the greatest fighters in history such as Mas Oyama, Choki Motobu, Bushi Matsumora, etc. didn't get their skills from kata when that is about 80% of what they did along with striking the makiwara post, punch bags, and so on?





That was THEN, this is now. Perhaps they didn't have the best competition surrounding them. Perhaps everyone else was doing a version of kata themselves. We just know better now.

No boxer is going to do kata. No wrestler or Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighter will do kata. Why do you think that is? Primarily because its a waste of precious time.

What *I* believe is that the MODERN era is producing better fighters than at any other time in history. I believe that more recent training methods and principles are doing a far better job than ancient and obsolete methods. We should strive to evolve and not live in the past. I like taking what is available today and eliminating that which can be eliminated. That is to be efficient, which is key.

Basically Iím saying that while those men were ďprobablyĒ good, going by what you ďhearĒ (the gospel spread by people of the same faith -- Ďkarateka in other words), we probably have a LOT more good fighters than at any other time. Todayís athletes are better. Fight training is better.


Quote:


Mas Oyama and many fighters he trained defeated many muay thai fighters and even took a championship with them before.




Iím quite sure that many muay Thai fighters have defeated karate guys as well. Basically what this means is that Mas Oyama was able to develop his skill in spite of his kata practice. Iím sure he was more than a little unique in other attributes and characteristics. I am also quite sure that Mas Oyama spent time actually fighting and sparring as well, which likely had quite a bit more influence on his fighting ability, at least as far as what you hear.

Quote:


Kata and prearranged sparring was a staple of their training.




And I'm sure that it wasn't the only thing they did. Imagine that if they had only dropped kata, they'd have developed into competent fighters even more quickly than they did.


Quote:


In fact, why the hell does anyone practice kata anymore if it's so worthless...?




Tradition for traditionís sake. That and they simply donít often know any better. The majority of martial artists donít even fight, so how would they know that what theyíre doing is worth a crap anyway. They wouldnít. Many (if not most) martial arts instructors donít even fight. And by that, I'm not talking about the UFC, or pro-am boxing. I'm talking about gearing up and going at it. Hard.

Point sparring isnít fighting.


Quote:


I only invest in training methods that will make me a more effective fighter and to further my practical fighting knowledge. If kata was worthless I wouldn't bother with it.





You sure about that? I donít think youíre reading half of what I write. Youíve not even tried to counter any of my arguments.

Quote:


Kata is a compendium of the most effective techniques and tactics known by various masters and experts throughout history and were designed to give a person practical fighting skills that would work in real situations.





I think a lot of karateka would both agree and disagree with that statement. I understand that kata is a compendium. Itís a catalog of sorts. It does NOT teach fighting ability. It doesnít and canít because there is no relationship with a live, resisting opponent. Iíve said that at least three times. Either debate that point or stop trying altogether.


Quote:


Why would they do that if kata is worthless?




Because many simply either enjoy kata, or donít know any better. Many probably realize that it isnít a fight training tool.

Asking ME why people would do kata if it was worthless is pointless. It doesnít make your argument.

Let me ask YOU a question: Why would nearly a thousand people follow Jim Jones to Guyana and drink cyanide laced koolaid? Because they were brainwashed and didnít know any better. Many of them were reasonably intelligent people as well. It can happen to anyone.


Quote:

Kata gives you the knowledge needed, and you then must take that knowledge and practice it live, which is where that form of training comes in





Ok, lets take that. First of all, you donít need kata to give you the knowledge needed. Secondly, you can start gaining that knowledge and, develop skill at the same time by practicing it ďliveĒ. There is no need in doing something against the AIR. Youíre not going to APPLY it against the air. Youíre going to apply your technique against a live, resisting human being. Why not learn and develop your skill against one? Sounds only logical.


Quote:


, so yeah it's not required but it does a lot of good.




So you admit that it isnít required. Thatís good because weíre making progress. But I disagree that it does a lot of good when:

* It wastes time IF, skill in performance is oneís primary objective
* It has no relationship with a real human opponent
* It exists in a pattern (no fight happens in a pattern so why should we train in them?)
* We can obtain benefits quicker using other methods that DO have a direct relationship to a real human being.

Kata, in my opinion, doesnít make any sense. If it did, *I* would be the first to sign on brother. Of course, that will be a cold day in hell.


Quote:


Ask any traditional martial artist on here.






Uh broÖI just said earlier that I basically didnít agree with a lot of traditional martial arts practices. What makes you think that Iím going to change my opinion by asking another traditional martial artist?



Ya know, I just saw on your profile that you're still in high school. That kind of explains a lot. I've been training longer than you have been ALIVE. Don't you think you really need to be around a bit longer than you have before you start to come to these concrete conclusions?

Live a bit bro.



-John

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#252900 - 07/23/06 11:02 PM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: JKogas]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I hate it when people derail threads with stupid arguements.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#252901 - 07/24/06 12:21 AM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: Stormdragon]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Joel, I don't think it's that dumb. every time I re-visit this topic I realize something else.

SD: you might be hoping. think of kata study like different kinds of painings. you've got paintings ranging from ultra-realistic that look like photographs to painings that look like a baboon with paint on his ass sat on some canvas. Then there are the painings that are inner reaching thru outward expression, etc. painting for the sake of painting.
Most Karate is kata study for the sake of kata study. a relatively small percent train kata in a way that would prepare students for the type of resistive training JK is talking about.
I think you may be making the common mistake thinking non-kata based type of training is just brawling, and somehow your neatly sequenced and sophisticated responses will take care of any situations.
Where are the fighting clips of Funakoshi, Nagamine or Miyagi, and the 20th century Masters and founders? and where are the kata-based fighters in the cage making millions on pay-per-view? there aren't any. but there are plenty of stories. so when you first start a kata-based Art, it is upon faith that: A. it works and your instructor can teach it well. and B. you'll someday reach the level you imagine reaching.

If I could do it over, I'd FIRST learn how to fight with boxing, grappling and wrestling...THEN I'd take a look at kata study from a qualified instructor as oppossed to the kata dancing most dojos have as a sort of moving meditation towards inner growth. Nothing wrong with it, if thats the goal. Just don't fool yourself or others into beleiving you are training to protect a castle when what you actually might be training is Karate yoga to protect a castle in the sky.

A disclaimer: I'm not cutting down kata practice or the founders of kata-based Arts, most of the founders did training outside of kata study. namely grappling and boxing. they started with solid fighting strategy, THEN interpreted kata....so of course it worked for them. They were trying to encode principals which they learned the hard way as a mnemonic gesture.
someone coming into a dojo from off the street with no fighting experience would have a looooong road ahead learning how to fight by kata study alone. again, unless the instructor specifically trains students to reach that goal. I suspect it would be a small percentage and hard to come by.

and how beneficial is that goal to you? do you need actual fighting skill for occupation? maybe. live in a rough neighborhood? get in alot of bar fights? want to impress your friends next time there is a spat over a girl?

personally I don't want to train to be a good fighter - I want to train for the fun of it, figure out how kata works for the sake of itself and while I'm at it, to maybe get lucky by developing a good split second reaction to a situation.

JK: wassup?

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#252902 - 07/24/06 12:22 AM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So I take it you're saying NO traditional MA'ist could ever possibly beat oyu in a fight? Yeah ok, right. Keep dreamin pop's.


[edited for excessive quoting. Storm, if you're going to quote an entire post, especially one that long, have a point other than a 2 line insult.

-Joel]


Edited by JoelM (07/24/06 12:28 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252903 - 07/24/06 12:38 AM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Ed, it's stupid because it's not on topic with the thread. If they want to argue about kata, do it in the kata section.


BTW, I also hate it when people quote very long posts and only add a little quip of their own at the end, it wastes space and is annoying as hell.


Edited by JoelM (07/24/06 12:40 AM)
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#252904 - 07/24/06 12:40 AM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: JoelM]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sounded like a bunch of ranting and raving to me. and you beat me to the edit job, I was going to edit out that long annoying quote too.

on topic: I hate the color turquoise. even the name of that color is annoying.

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#252905 - 07/24/06 12:42 AM Re: Ranting and Raving [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Ranting and raving back and forth....I guess so.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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