Good for you Jkogas, and you know what, I practice kata all the time and I've only become a better fighter. Kata isn't meant to make you a great fighter, it's meant to teach you the techniques and principles required to be a great fighter. You then need to put those techniques and principles into practice through "live" training. Just because YOU or a few of your friends are decent fighters without kata doesn't mean kata is no good and is worthless. I train live all the time and I use kata, and I'm an excellent fighter. Nobody is claiming that kata practice alone makes you a good fighter, it's just ONE of the many tools you can use. Stop trying to shove oyur way of thinking down our throats, maybe your way isn't THE way or just isn't right for us.

Stormdragon wrote

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Good for you Jkogas, and you know what, I practice kata all the time and I've only become a better fighter.

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Kata isn't meant to make you a great fighter, it's meant to teach you the techniques and principles required to be a great fighter.

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So apparently, you’ve become a great fighter in SPITE of your having practiced kata.

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You then need to put those techniques and principles into practice through "live" training. Just because YOU or a few of your friends are decent fighters without kata doesn't mean kata is no good and is worthless.

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It’s a few more than just me and a “coupla friends“.

However, the fact that one can become a competent fighter WITHOUT kata, only proves that it isn’t necessary - which has been the only point that I’ve been making.

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I train live all the time and I use kata, and I'm an excellent fighter. Nobody is claiming that kata practice alone makes you a good fighter, it's just ONE of the many tools you can use.

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You’re sort of making my point in that sentence whether you realize it or not.

There are only so many hours in a day that you can train (unless you have a trust fund and don’t have to work). With so many tools available, taking the more efficient of them becomes important (to some of us). I prefer to develop a person’s skill as quickly as possible and see no reason for delaying that whatsoever. There’s just no point.

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Stop trying to shove your way of thinking down our throats, maybe your way isn't THE way or just isn't right for us.

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Hey Stormdragon….take a look at the thread title there bro. What’s it say? By the way, you should know because YOU'RE the one who created it.

So that's what I'm doing.

And since when has expressing one’s opinion become “shoving your way of thinking down your throats”? If YOU feel that is what’s happening, perhaps you should do some soul searching. Maybe what I’m saying is hitting a nerve for a reason.

You’ll notice that I always say what’s on my mind. I try and be respectful yet honest with my opinion. I also say that if you enjoy something, that you should do it. However I’m NOT going be a member of this or any OTHER forum and see people say that kata is a necessary element in the development of a competent fighter. That’s complete nonsense in my opinion. Not one person has made a credible argument otherwise.




-John

So your saying that some of the greatest fighters in history such as Mas Oyama, Choki Motobu, Bushi Matsumora, etc. didn't get their skills from kata when that is about 80% of what they did along with striking the makiwara post, punch bags, and so on? Mas Oyama and many fighters he trained defeated many muay thai fighters and even took a championship with them before. Kata and prearranged sparring was a staple of their training.
In fact, why the hell does anyone practice kata anymore if it's so worthless...? I only invest in training methods that will make me a more effective fighter and to further my practical fighting knowledge. If kata was worthless I wouldn't bother with it.
Kata is a compendium of the most effective techniques and tactics known by various masters and experts throughout history and were designed to give a person practical fighting skills that would work in real situations. Why would they do that if kata is worthless? Kata gives you the knowledge needed, and you then must take that knowledge and practice it live, which is where that form of training comes in, so yeah it's not requierd but it does a lot of good. Ask any traditional martial artist on here.



[edited for excessive quoting
-Joel]

I hate it when people derail threads with stupid arguements.

Joel, I don't think it's that dumb. every time I re-visit this topic I realize something else.

SD: you might be hoping. think of kata study like different kinds of painings. you've got paintings ranging from ultra-realistic that look like photographs to painings that look like a baboon with paint on his ass sat on some canvas. Then there are the painings that are inner reaching thru outward expression, etc. painting for the sake of painting.
Most Karate is kata study for the sake of kata study. a relatively small percent train kata in a way that would prepare students for the type of resistive training JK is talking about.
I think you may be making the common mistake thinking non-kata based type of training is just brawling, and somehow your neatly sequenced and sophisticated responses will take care of any situations.
Where are the fighting clips of Funakoshi, Nagamine or Miyagi, and the 20th century Masters and founders? and where are the kata-based fighters in the cage making millions on pay-per-view? there aren't any. but there are plenty of stories. so when you first start a kata-based Art, it is upon faith that: A. it works and your instructor can teach it well. and B. you'll someday reach the level you imagine reaching.

If I could do it over, I'd FIRST learn how to fight with boxing, grappling and wrestling...THEN I'd take a look at kata study from a qualified instructor as oppossed to the kata dancing most dojos have as a sort of moving meditation towards inner growth. Nothing wrong with it, if thats the goal. Just don't fool yourself or others into beleiving you are training to protect a castle when what you actually might be training is Karate yoga to protect a castle in the sky.

A disclaimer: I'm not cutting down kata practice or the founders of kata-based Arts, most of the founders did training outside of kata study. namely grappling and boxing. they started with solid fighting strategy, THEN interpreted kata....so of course it worked for them. They were trying to encode principals which they learned the hard way as a mnemonic gesture.
someone coming into a dojo from off the street with no fighting experience would have a looooong road ahead learning how to fight by kata study alone. again, unless the instructor specifically trains students to reach that goal. I suspect it would be a small percentage and hard to come by.

and how beneficial is that goal to you? do you need actual fighting skill for occupation? maybe. live in a rough neighborhood? get in alot of bar fights? want to impress your friends next time there is a spat over a girl?

personally I don't want to train to be a good fighter - I want to train for the fun of it, figure out how kata works for the sake of itself and while I'm at it, to maybe get lucky by developing a good split second reaction to a situation.

JK: wassup?

So I take it you're saying NO traditional MA'ist could ever possibly beat oyu in a fight? Yeah ok, right. Keep dreamin pop's.


[edited for excessive quoting. Storm, if you're going to quote an entire post, especially one that long, have a point other than a 2 line insult.

-Joel]

Ed, it's stupid because it's not on topic with the thread. If they want to argue about kata, do it in the kata section.


BTW, I also hate it when people quote very long posts and only add a little quip of their own at the end, it wastes space and is annoying as hell.

sounded like a bunch of ranting and raving to me. and you beat me to the edit job, I was going to edit out that long annoying quote too.

on topic: I hate the color turquoise. even the name of that color is annoying.

Ranting and raving back and forth....I guess so.