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#252541 - 04/01/08 02:15 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

how did they ever learn to grapple, groundfight and strike without kata I wonder?




In karate application came before kata. In fact, application was always studied first. Kata was simply designed as a storehouse for the lessons and principles which are trained in resistive two man drills. Teaching kata first and application later is the modern way. Itosu did this as did other okinawans before him if they did not want their students to use their karate as a means of destruction. Matsumora did the same when he taught Motobu and refused to teach him his kumite due to his reputation as a street fighter.

Think of it this way. You can teach a person who knows nothing of fighting to stick his fist out and then pull it back. Because it means little as a fighting technique that exercise will not improve his fighting. However, teach a person a jab, how to use it, and have him train using it against resistance and then have him do the same exercise and he will be able to improve his technique and skill in using the technique with this solo drill. Kata is similar.

This is the way I was trained by my first teacher. And it is how Nagamine trained him.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#252542 - 04/01/08 03:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med,

Have you seen any vids anywhere on the net which show an example of the ground grappling you feel is inherrant to Karate? I just think it might help if folks know precisely what you are talking about.

Out of curiosity did your first teacher learn ground work from Nagamine? Did he teach any to you?

Also it does seem like your whole argument is based on one or two lines in books by a single author which are in truth incredibly vague. The last one you quoted says that the author believes tegumi may be part of Te's origins. Another is an english translation of what may just be a coloquilism (karate wrestling). You have to admit that in the face of tons of evidence and claims to the contrary, your historical link is pretty weak.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#252543 - 04/01/08 03:51 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
As far as the "evidence" contrary to my asertions about grappling/groundfighting in karate it is that of omision. There is no explicit information which says there is groundfighting in karate, however, there is nothing which says there is not any. However, I never based my practice on historical research. Simply similarities between my grappling practice and karate practice as a youth. And then when I was taught how to analyze and interpret kata and gleam application from them things started making sense to me. Now, it is important to understand that I was never in awe of the Gracies and UFC because I always knew that grappling was no joke, however, I also knew how to counter the wrestling aspect of grappling and not be taken to the ground. It was not the obsession that many people have with the UFC which began in 1993 that caused me to make these connections. Simply shared principles.

As far as grappling in karate we mainly learned chokes, joint locks on the wrist, elbow, and shoulder in addition to some takedowns. We would initiate these standing and sometimes be forced to finish them on the floor.

As far as video there is none that shows precisely what I am talking about. I would have to do it. One day I may, you never know. However, I can tell you that if you look at wrestling as it is applied to fighting you will get a good idea of some of the principles that are shared. The thing about good wresting is that many of the principles used standing also work on the ground. That is what makes fighting techniques and principles sound IMO. Its not a question of having a completely different set of techs for each situation. If you can train one technique that will work in any position it is a good technique. Like the underhook. The grappling in karate is like this. Very simple and works in many positions. In fact, this is the genious of well thought out fighting systems. Sound techniques are sound techniques. The okinawan kata are chock full of sound techniques. If you control the shoulder you control the shoulder. On the ground, in the air, at your momma's house, where ever. The same goes for wrist control, head control, etc. These are the principles contained in okinawan karate.

My arguements are not based on written history. They are based on training. I believe others are basing their arguements on history and research. It just so happens that there are a few nuggets of knowledge in the books written by the founder of my style. But don't you think it is very interesting that the style in which I find inspiration for these grappling principles is the very style whose founder wrote the little that was written by an okinawan about okinawan grappling and its relation to karate?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#252544 - 04/01/08 07:26 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


My arguements are not based on written history. They are based on training. I believe others are basing their arguements on history and research. It just so happens that there are a few nuggets of knowledge in the books written by the founder of my style. But don't you think it is very interesting that the style in which I find inspiration for these grappling principles is the very style whose founder wrote the little that was written by an okinawan about okinawan grappling and its relation to karate?





Absolutely



Ed
Quote:


I'm not expecting you'd acknowledge a good point even if you were hit over the head with it...so flame away. and hey Jude -take a sad song, and make it bet-t-er.





Hi Ed. Tell you something Ed. Every point you make about most subjects are taken serious.
Do you know why? Because the counter arguments you come up with make good sense. Every point would have to be counter proven should anybody decide to publish their findings? (except for the “devil in you approach”)
Quote:



Did Okinawan te have kata? or a better question - did tegumi have kata?




From my studies and to the time scale it seems early ti didn’t have kata as such practiced today.
It was more than likely dance being at that time dance would have been the best form of the transmission of knowledge. For most things.



User the almighty
Quote:




U know I saw this tread and was like not this again, but thought again and was like well let me do a survey at my school with 100 random people





If you feel that would help go for it. . Don’t let people put you off if you have a line of thinking

Seiken

Quote:




If you looked into world history instead of the myth filled martial arts history you might find something.




From my studies a certain time period in world history plays a part. Except it has to be more or less proven.
DNA testing can give some indication to tribal relationships where they were to a degree isolated. Don’t let people put you off if you have a line of thinking.

cxt
Quote:




It does repeat the old story of Alexander the Greats men taking PK to India and thus forming a basis for Indain martial arts.....maybe...the article goes to some pains to explains that no proofs of such an event exsist.





From my studies the sharing of knowledge might have began in an earlier period in history.
Still working on that one.



Matt
Quote:



Geez......OK then, what proof? Pankration was never part of your (or Med's) argument about groundfighting in kata until *someone else* mentioned it. That is NOT proof in any way.






Matt, Early forms of combat were the research point. No one is saying that the only proof is someone mentioning pankration. It goes a lot deeper.

Brian, How is my spelling? Ed and others come up with productive counter arguments. You come up with productive counter spelling checks.

Zach, well what can I say?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 07:34 AM)

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#252545 - 04/01/08 08:34 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
You don't learn how to fight on the ground in kata in the same way you don't learn modern boxing from kata. However, kata teaches "groundfighting" or more correclty fighting to the ground to a limited extent.

Move 9 Heian Shodan - throw/takedown

Moves 1-2, 3-4 Heain Nidan - from double grab, lock opponents arms out against each other, trip, takedown, switch orientation and double shoulder lock and knee control to back of head.

Heian Sandan - stomps/kicks - application of trapping kick to takedown, leglock, double and triple augmented (now hands free) leg lock

Heian Yondan - x block/reinforced inner block - leglock takedown

Heian Godan - reinforced uppercut/jump/reinforced inner block - armbar into piledriver/throw/choke

"swastika posture" - leg/body takedown

Bassai Dai - Opening salutation - sprawl, shoulderm lock, knee to head and control

Also parry tackle, arm control, strike the head into single shoudler lock/head control

Jion - slow double lower block into knee/fast lower blocks step into double inner blocks:

evade grab, control arms, headbut, trip/leglock into throw and hip lock (painful)

Enpi 1st move - armbar into takedown, lock out shoulder and apply wristlock (opponent becomes huddled over)

2nd Move - rise and dislocate shoulder

or 1st move armbar into takedown (more fluid and circular, reach in at end)

2nd - head control/neck crank standing or control front leg and dump then apply leg leg lock standing (3rd 4th moves) neck crank moves into head throw

skip is tripping or throwing sequence (well known)

fudo dachi into jump and step back knifehand (actually superfluous)

armbar into throw using opponents leg or head control, then use "squatting" choke or leg lock (hands free using legs)

Bassai Sho - 1st slow pressing block into hammerfist/lowerblock doble strike (3rd and 4th moves)

armbar like from enpi, into takedown and figure four control

Hangetsu - refer to Seisan and Hakatsuru - very rich in controls, chokes and takedowns. The last pull/step over/kick/step/block/palm heel sequence is a good tripping sequence that ends in your opponent facing the other way, seated and with fingers jammed into their triple heater, point of jaw, neck and shoulder PPs.

Kanku Sho, Dai, Chinte, Unsu - besides groundkicks, some throws that repeat themselves. Apparently there is a scissors defense to being in a vulnerable grappling position in Kanku Dai.
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

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#252546 - 04/01/08 10:01 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

As far as the "evidence" contrary to my asertions about grappling/groundfighting in karate it is that of omision. There is no explicit information which says there is groundfighting in karate, however, there is nothing which says there is not any. However, I never based my practice on historical research.



school yourself on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

but just as I don't verbally debate on a mat, I don't use 'gut feeling' as a basis for historical evidence in a forum argument.


you can't really give page numbers as references, then on the next post take the cop-out answer as basing your historical argument on your mat expereince.

sorry. doesn't hold water. you contradict your your own credability.


I take it the historical argument is laid to rest (in that there IS no historical basis for connecting groundfighting to kata), and you now wish to change the focus to your personal feeling/experience? thats fine, but lets be clear of the difference.

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#252547 - 04/01/08 10:17 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
med says: "There is no explicit information which says there is groundfighting in karate"


and we do agree that there was no evidence of tegumi/te having kata.

do we agree that tegumi/te practice on Okinawa predates toudi? (te with Chinese kata) ?

if we do agree on that, then the following question comes up: if Okinawan masters were already skilled grapplers/strikers and overall fighters - why import Chinese kata?

Think of the year xxxx when the first Okinawan Master imports a Chinese form - if fighting knowledge comes before kata formation...then why import someone elses kata, when you can just build your own experience into your own form?

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#252548 - 04/01/08 10:33 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
My thoughts in the subject.

Quote:


I take it the historical argument is laid to rest (in that there IS no historical basis for connecting groundfighting to kata),





That statement isnt conclusive yet. Time will tell.
It is still open to debate but nothing as yet to prove or dissprove to a degree of total certainty.
Quote:


and you now wish to change the focus to your personal feeling/experience? thats fine, but lets be clear of the difference.




The point is Ed it cant be proven or dissproven at this moment in time. So no one has won anything. It has been a discussion that has brought to light a lot of things.
But it seems it will need further exploration to continue the debate in the future.
No winners no losers.

Just an argument that produced a lot of points for further research.

Quote:




if we do agree on that, then the following question comes up: if Okinawan masters were already skilled grapplers/strikers and overall fighters - why import Chinese kata?

Think of the year xxxx when the first Okinawan Master imports a Chinese form - if fighting knowledge comes before kata formation...then why import someone elses kata, when you can just build your own experience into your own form?






Slow down Ed, At the moment I am only concentrating on the early ti part of karate.
I can make a scant guess but I am not going to.
One of the things I have is a written report by a Japanese school teacher around 1901 that in a way is partly backed up by an Okinawan master as to certain thugs using an art based on extreme hand conditioning against the local population.

The master gave his explanation of the art they used as
an incomplete art. I am presuming he meant early ti that might have been practiced still at that time by the less well heeled part of the population.



Beyond that I could post something at a future date.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 10:57 AM)

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#252549 - 04/01/08 10:42 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
right. so why do people still insist on trying to give the impression their art is based on historical accuracy?

that fact is, they don't know.

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#252550 - 04/01/08 10:54 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

right. so why do people still insist on trying to give the impression their art is based on historical accuracy?

that fact is, they don't know.




More than likely as historical accuracy as can be got at that moment in time.
Ed would you like you like to get at the truth or just win an argument? I would like to get to the truth. Your input is great on these debates. At this moment nothing can be proven 100 percent. If Medulanent states something or you state something turning it personal wont achieve anything.
Both of you guys make my brain work.

Jude

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