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#252501 - 03/29/08 03:22 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Your teacher is right. And so was BuDoc.




What was BuDoc right about? Not posting here, the groundfighting principles in okinawan karate, or both?
_________________________
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#252502 - 03/29/08 05:56 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
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Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

You do not want me to take out your appendix!


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#252503 - 03/29/08 06:19 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

You do not want me to take out your appendix!







It seems as if evasion is a core element of your style.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#252504 - 03/29/08 09:20 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Victor Smith has a good related thread here:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...bf#Post15992016
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252505 - 03/30/08 10:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

But, trying to force-fit historical connections where there do not seem to be any is deceptive.




Well there is one thing for sure. Anybody researching and writing about the origins of ti needs to be have nigh on 100 percent proof.

The recorded history of Okinawa is bad.
Force fitting historical connections is bad. I dont think Medulant is force fitting anything. I think his instincts are correct.

where there do not seem to be any

At this moment in time there is some proof. It is scant and very little. Enough for me to keep looking. Enough to state I think Medulant is correct and he isnt force fitting anything.

Jude

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#252506 - 03/30/08 11:55 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
not referring to Medulant, but just the argument itself.

the logic goes something like:

statement: kata contains groundfighting principles.

supporting logic:
There are many masters who first had experience in tegumi, (an informal Okinawan wrestling which later merged and survives within folk Okinawan sumo.)

Even though the masters who reference tegumi don't explicitly state or demonstrate a direct connection to their karate kata training, the implied connection is their base study being of a wrestling nature.

conclusion: therefore any base in wrestling (olympic, grecco, shoot-fighting, MMA, Shuai jiao or BJJ), can also be considered 'tegumi', and by implication, part of karate. and since kata is central to karate, there must be principles of tegumi contained within, which includes groundfighting.


As an argument, the logic is weak, and the connection is forced. As a practice - sure why not, great stuff.

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#252507 - 03/30/08 11:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Jude,

Med's is a good karateka, of that im sure, he is also an online buddy of mine who speaks and shares ideas/work with me, offline so to speak.

However how does 'scant and very little' (and Med's view)evidence match up against a huge body (that is avalaible) of evidence and experience that states the opposite?

Add to that Okinawan Seniors and Western Masters that I and others have discussed this subject with, they don't see groundfighting 'proper' strategy and techniques in the classical kata.(in fairness I don't think Med does, just it's difficult to explain in writing).

My friend, you are clutching at straws, be optimistic,

keep looking but you should accept that simply the vast majority of opinion both pictorial, written and oral (let alone the physical lack of groundwork proper in kata), in this case might just simply be right.

Of course it would be idiotic to no accept that aspects of standup work canno't be used to good effect on the ground,

as they simply can but not to the level of a specific grappling art with a larger technical, and classical training methods employed for the ground element, ie judo, BJJ etc etc.

Personally I don't get the confusion here, but its a good fun debate - just running out of steam.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#252508 - 03/30/08 03:12 PM Re: Kata groundfighting *DELETED* [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Post deleted by jude33

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#252509 - 03/30/08 03:19 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




Add to that Okinawan Seniors and Western Masters that I and others have discussed this subject with, they don't see groundfighting 'proper' strategy and techniques in the classical kata.(in fairness I don't think Med does, just it's difficult to explain in writing).





Hi Jim.
All due respect. Maybe they dont want to see it.
Everything I have gathered points to grappling and elements of ground work in karate and given Medulants back ground and knowledge of kata he can see it. Even if he changed his mind I still believe there might be a chance of proving it.
It also points to pankration in the beggining. I think in time enough proof will be made. Kata more than likely doesnt hold all the clues by the way. I find it realy interesting that given Okinawans who have a direct lineage back to their forefathers decide that it doesnt exist?
What information do they give about the origins of ti?
Hardly any. Why is that? Because the records were lost on Okinawa? When? 2nd world war?
Why is that? Education and earning money? Goverment intervention? Time will tell.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/30/08 03:31 PM)

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#252510 - 03/30/08 03:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Why wouldn't they want to see it?

Why wouldn't it be in the many early books that are passed on?

Why wouldn't there be a number of simple ground positional drills passed down in ANY Okinawan line?

Why would, trusted Senior friends of mine (whom trained in Okinawa for many years, under many teachers), who tell me many things about orthodox karate not tell me about ground grappling proper in kata?

(it would be a real find after all?)

Why is there only three positions even remotly suggesting ground work in the classical Shurite kata I practice,

-the kneeling position in Chinto (clearly a hold and strike after you have dump them down from your shoulders),

-the drop down in Kusanku (clearly a reaping leg throw)

- and the kneeling position at the start of Useishi (clearly a Kamate, leading to standup?)

- granted other interpreations have validity, but im trying to make a point.

Leaving the other 99% of movements in the classical kata I practice clearly on your feet?

One of the main problems you have defending your point of view is grappling, on the ground, is mainly concerned with positional dominance to effect a submission,

this can't be transmitted in solo kata, it has to be done with a partner, and no line of Okinawan Karate, that I have ever seen or heard about does train, in this manner with this in mind.

every line of Okinawan Karate I have seen, or heard about effects strikes to a downed opponent to stun/finish, and then will grab something, a limb/neck to break/submit, whilst standing up, or at most kneeling on one leg.

but the strategy is NOT to go to ground or be taken to ground to try for positional dominance - it may happen in real life of course,

and then the reliance is on your physical conditoning and the simple elements of what works standing up, often works on the ground, to a point.

But ground grappling proper that isn't as shown very, very well by the BJJ, Judo and of course MMA guys - this is why NO karate hard nuts have really shown any real dominance in the cage, to date. (and why the ones that do ok, cross train).

Other elements to consider are weapons, and multiple opponents - these really are real self defence scenarios to consider, and your mobility is key to even a chance of survival, im not suggesting karate has the ultimate awnsers to these things, but ground grappling proper certainly doesn't.

This is old news anyhow, im done on this one for a while.

Jude,

keep looking, but keep your eyes open and don't ignore things if they don't fit your want's, I have been there on this one and many other subjects..............
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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