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#252531 - 03/31/08 09:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

Again, the basis of the argument: In Nagamine's book (which the title chapter was re-interpreted in English versions from "Sumo" to "Tegumi" for reasons unadressed and with no one taking responsibility - I know this because I asked), Nagamine mentions having engaged in an Okinawan form of backyard wrestling (play roughhousing-type grappling, the Okinawans called 'tegumi', lower-case 't') during his childhood years.

Nagamine then mentions he did extensive research and has reason to believe the custom is related to a predecessor which influenced Okinawan Sumo. Then the rest of the chapter is exclusively about contemporary Sumo masters (not ancient "Tegumi masters" - which seems a bit of an oxymoron term, since 'Tegumi Master' would be like saying 'Backyard Wrestling Master').
here is your typical backyard wrestling today (minus the WWF-stuff):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A4sJUM7HIk
just make stuff up as you go and learn along the way what works and what doesn't. everyone does that growing up. Thats the activity that was refered to as 'tegumi'.


Nagamine does not mentioned how tegumi affecting Ti, other than perhaps suppossing it did - and maybe it did - but his research self-admittedly didn't turn up anything solid. Absolutely no connection is made by Nagamine between tegumi and kata.


so the 'evidence' of okinawan tegumi being interpreted from chinese forms is at best, as thin as the fact all three terms happen to be used within one book.

as far as written fact, there you go. Nagamine's book is the only one which has the terms: 'tegumi', 'karate', and 'kata' all within it's bound pages. (prior to 1990's, that I know of)


so if thats the criteria for 'written evidence', then just imagine what else can be cooked up.


btw, that tegumi is no longer 'practiced' what would be really lost? Will people 100 years from now regret that kids today engaging in king-of-the-mountain impromptu wrestling bouts, haven't documented their efforts in a technical sense?

Thats basically the hype on 'Tegumi'. it's being sold with a romanticized image using a foreign term, but is more likely a collection of here and there modern wrestling drills.



if we use cultural practices as a basis of argument, there is ALOT more supporting evidence that more than a few Okinawan karateka also studied Odori (folk dancing) and the connections to their kata. So why aren't people having $500 folk dancing seminars showing the connections to their kata? reason: it doesn't sell as well as making the connection to wrestling (especially post-1990's).


Can it's selling power be a legitimate reason to push or pull on historical connections, by providing what people want to learn and luring them with attractive romanticization? From a historical standpoint it's bogus - from a training standpoint it may very well be great stuff.


Just because it's great stuff, does not automatically give it legitimacy in a historical sense. Is my main point.

I'm not expecting you'd acknowledge a good point even if you were hit over the head with it...so flame away. and hey jude -take a sad song, and make it bet-t-er.

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#252532 - 03/31/08 10:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
This is a good summary of the origins of karate. it's something to be held in esteem.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm

It also means to me you should be training in all of these in your base art or it needs improvement. Replace kata with lockflows, randori as applicable etc.

John Kogas: why are you being such a dishonest dissembler? Your previous good behaviour has been thrown out the window. You don't have a problem with kata, but you don't need to stroke your own ego by making an effete comparison with (what society sees as) feminine dance and then implying kata isn't good for self defence?

I've got no problem with people who shun it and don't do it. But I do have a problem with people who should know better trolling interest forums of practices they have an obsession against.

You are being mednacious or obtuse, or both. Which one John? You know better and can and have discuss MA in a much better spirit. Please do so in the future.
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

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#252533 - 03/31/08 11:07 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
Usenthemighty Offline
Member

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 78
Loc: Nash hood , TN
U know I saw this tread and was like not this again, but thought again and was like well let me do a survey at my school with 100 random people that have zero experience in ground fighting. (which is fighting on the ground) I'll give them a diagram of a random kata and ask them if they see any joint-locks, chokes, or anything that might help them if the were fighting on the ground. I'm interested to see the results on this one.

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#252534 - 04/01/08 12:16 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

This is a good summary of the origins of karate. it's something to be held in esteem.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm





Quote:


Tegumi: [&#25163;&#32068;] Originally a multi-faceted style of fighting dating back to the time of Tametomo, the discipline is believed to have been derived from Chinese Wrestling [Jiao Li/&#35282;&#21147; from which comes Shuai Jiao/&#25684;&#35282; --- name est. 1928]. Tegumi evolved into a form of grappling and finally became a rule-bound sport called Ryukyu Sumo.




and it gives a wiki link to "Tegumi":
Quote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tegumi
Tegumi is a traditional form of wrestling from Okinawa..

According to Shoshin Nagamine, in his "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters", there are no accurate historical documents surrounding the origins of grappling in Okinawa. Like most other forms of wrestling it seems that tegumi evolved from a primitive form of grappling self defense, which was constantly being adapted and enhanced as it was exposed to outside influences.

It is believed by some, Shoshin Nagamine Sensei included, that tegumi was probably the original form of fighting in Okinawa and, as it was enhanced by striking and kicking techniques imported from China, the progenitor of Te, which is the foundation of modern Karate.

Known as tegumi in Naha, and mutou in Tomari and Shuri, Okinawan wrestling remained a popular cultural recreation until the Taisho period (1912 – 1925). There is little evidence of how tegumi evolved but the result was a rough and tumble bout where the winner was decided by submission, through joint locks, strangles or pinning. Today tegumi has a strict set of rules and is still practiced widely.

Island folklore is full of references to tegumi and it is believed that the islands version of sumo can find its roots in the rural wrestling of the past.





so which definition is held in esteem? his statements contradict his reference.
Any sources to claim the origins of tegumi going back to the 12th century? or is that part of the folklore the wikipage mentions?

where was Tegumi ever descibed as integrated into Te and/or Karate? Many Okinawan kids probably did engage in forms of "wrasslin". That they later trained in karate can we legitimately make the historical connection between groundfighting and kata?


looks like great drills, but does this look like what could be Ryukyu folk wrestling?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLzlNHQLbU4

ah...now the connection comes clear.




I have no problem with various arts having various drills - it's all good - it's just annoying when history tries to be re-written in the name of marketing campaigns.


now I prepare for the damage-control squad to swoop in and/or hit the batphone....lol

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#252535 - 04/01/08 12:43 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Maybe you can take it up with Pat Mc Carthy who trained in Japan, Okinawa and China for 20 years. I could take it up with Nagamine, but I'll need Shirley Maclaine's help.
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

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#252536 - 04/01/08 12:55 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Usenthemighty]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

U know I saw this tread and was like not this again, but thought again and was like well let me do a survey at my school with 100 random people that have zero experience in ground fighting. (which is fighting on the ground) I'll give them a diagram of a random kata and ask them if they see any joint-locks, chokes, or anything that might help them if the were fighting on the ground. I'm interested to see the results on this one.




That'll solve everything,lol.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#252537 - 04/01/08 12:56 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Maybe you can take it up with Pat Mc Carthy who trained in Japan, Okinawa and China for 20 years. I could take it up with Nagamine, but I'll need Shirley Maclaine's help.




No need. The answer is clear,but I wouldn't mind discussing it with them here.

If we kick their ass does that make us right?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#252538 - 04/01/08 01:26 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
already have, and while I respect his work/experience and opinion - I only disagree with the re-use of historical terms that are very easily and popularly construed as historical. It puts into question the motive for using the term in the first place...which the only answer I can come up with is: marketing. eg. "older-sounding" sells better.

Quote:


PM: Well, if you’re comfortable with knowing that the term “Tegumi” [‘grappling hands’] is --- in addition to being known as Okinawa’s original form of grappling--- is also the term “I” personally chose to represent a collective body of old-school two-person [kote kitae, kakei, muchimi-di, etc.] drills that I systematized into a cohesive study, I have nothing else to say on the matter. I am not personally interested in arguing semantics.





so there's 'tegumi' ...and then there's Tegumi™. got it.

semantics indeed.

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#252539 - 04/01/08 01:34 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

where was Tegumi ever descibed as integrated into Te and/or Karate?




Nagamine's book Tale's of Okinawa's Great Masters page 138.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#252540 - 04/01/08 01:51 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
this?

(after he explains that the term 'tegumi' is a general term/concept Okinawans use for 'grappling'):

Quote:


There is every reason to believe that tegumi, after being enhanced by techniques of striking and kicking, also served as the progenitor of "te".






"There is every reason to believe ..."

(which is the same as saying that 'te' probably had grappling - I don't deny that)
Nagamine is considered an authority and I respect his beliefs.


now you have a loose connection between grappling within te, or grappling with strikes and kicks - whichever way you wish to think about it.


Did Okinawan te have kata? or a better question - did tegumi have kata?


how did they ever learn to grapple, groundfight and strike without kata I wonder?

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