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#252491 - 03/29/08 12:38 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
we certainly won't learn anything from arguing the same stuff over and over, so sure - why not.

people are a product of their experience - and naturally that is projected onto how we interpret kata and how we choose to use it as a training tool. not to mention people's goals/interests and intents are different.

I think the temptation (or sometimes motivation if pushing seminars and DVD's) is for people to crosstrain and/or gain outside influence to add to their art, while wanting to attribute what they do to a perception of 'older' and therefore a 'true-er' essence of study in their classical sense of their art. Which is how you get BJJ/JJ/MMA/Judo/Shuai-Jiao trained Karateka selling DVD's under the older and more romantic title "Tegumi" or even "The lost bunkai of Channan kata and the Temple of Doom".

While it could be a great mix of experience and packaged into a well-delivered training method, it's still purposely deceptive with the motive to sell a view/impression (if even for just status/reputation and not for money). Luring with romanticized history.

blending what you have available and what meets your needs/interests is good stuff. personally, I'd like to see more acceptance and willingness for people to blend their arts across all karate styles and arts. there is no reason for all the styles....ALL Karate is hard and soft

style agnostic Karate...what would that look like, I wonder?

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#252492 - 03/29/08 12:47 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Hi, im new to the forums here. I quite enjoyed reading this topic in particular, while looking at kankudai of shotokan, I came across this application video. Demonstrated at around 2:07 to 2:30 is a perfectly plausible double leg takedown which deviates little if any from the kata.

I dont want to start off on a bad note arguing about kata. I accept we probaly will never know the absolute truth, but it sure is fun experimenting and learning from kata regardless of the outcome. If it works, does it matter the path you take?

EDIT: http://youtube.com/watch?v=CATIlzqSkfg&feature=related


Edited by Seiken (03/29/08 12:55 AM)

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#252493 - 03/29/08 01:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, what happended to "Fair enough, glad you are training well."
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#252494 - 03/29/08 02:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I'd like to see more acceptance and willingness for people to blend their arts across all karate styles and arts. there is no reason for all the styles....ALL Karate is hard and soft

style agnostic Karate...what would that look like, I wonder?




I just wanted to drift from the thread a bit and comment on this part to say I agree 100%!!

I don't see it truly on a big scale happening anytime soon, but I know that in past few years i've been exposed more to training with and under Karateka outside my style and it's been very eye-opening.

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#252495 - 03/29/08 02:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
slix Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Boston, MA
A 9th Star BB test had a master covering significant amounts of groundwork using a real katana it was very impressive. So I don't know if only some forms don't have kata with groundgame but that's not to say they all don't.
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#252496 - 03/29/08 11:10 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: slix]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

A 9th Star BB test had a master covering significant amounts of groundwork using a real katana it was very impressive. So I don't know if only some forms don't have kata with groundgame but that's not to say they all don't.




What kind of groundwork requires a katana?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252497 - 03/29/08 11:12 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

In fact, my teacher laughs at me for coming on here and dropping this stuff on you guys. He said I should use the time for training.




He may not laugh at you for doing it. He may laugh at you for for imagining that it will enlighten anyone. It won't.

Quote:

But then again, BuDoc is a good guy and I am not, right? So because he is a good guy I will bare the burden. I'm good at that kind of stuff.





He may laugh at you imagining that you have to bare the burden of Okinawan karates honor. Thats as silly as me argueing with someone when they say my dog is ugly because he only has on eye. I think she is beautiful. She certainly is not concerned with me defending her honor.


Quote:

I have always had conflict in my life and in fact I enjoy it so it doesn't really bother me.




He may laugh at you because... you pretend you don't want conflict when in fact you want it. Not thats not unusual, alot of people do. Look up the Victim, Persecutor, Rescuer Triangle. You are certainly not the only person that eats conflict. It shouldn't bother you because you are getting exactly what you want until you don't want it.

Keep in mind this message could be for anyone on the forum including myself. It is coming from the only person on the thread that has admitted to being crazy.

Quote:

In fact, my teacher laughs at me for coming on here and dropping this stuff on you guys. He said I should use the time for training. I think he might be right.





Your teacher is right. And so was BuDoc.

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#252498 - 03/29/08 11:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: slix]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Just curious. Isnt one of the reasons for kata to train the mind? Hypothetically speaking, if by studying the kata you correlate a relationship with current BJJ ground fighting(or whatever ground style) isnt that just a deeper mental aspect of training the kata? Therefor, it is karate? Even though it may or may not have been around originally in the kata or before 1991, the relation allows you to remember the technique with the kata?

Why is everyone afraid to make a new kata with ground fighting? Isnt that what most Karate of the past did? Itosu with pinans ,maybe even kankudai and bassai sho, ive read rumors of him altering and creating naihanchi nidan&sandan. Funakoshi, Kyan, Shimabuku, etc.. all altered their katas and karate practices to fit their needs & views.

Adding ground fighting you learn from somewhere else only adds to your karate and how important your kata is. Which is why I like the term crosstrain... im training with people that emphasize aspects I normally wouldnt. Mixed martial art gives the impression that once you mix the styles they somehow remain independent of eachother, but in reality you are just creating your style.

Sometimes I wonder if you can get too caught up with what it was or should be, instead of what it is or could be.

If I created a kata which movements and applications had no meaning, it looked good but you didnt understand the movements. Scientifically speaking, everything is good.. positioning, structure, etc.. but no meaning. By way of studying the movements you discover combative elements... its original intention really doesnt matter because it works, the point im making.. isnt the mental stimulus of the kata the most important aspect?

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#252499 - 03/29/08 11:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

A 9th Star BB test had a master covering significant amounts of groundwork using a real katana it was very impressive. So I don't know if only some forms don't have kata with groundgame but that's not to say they all don't.




What kind of groundwork requires a katana?




Seppuku?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#252500 - 03/29/08 11:30 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Why is everyone afraid to make a new kata with ground fighting?




Not the argument here at all. I could care less if someone were to create a new, groundfighting kata. Or if they find groundfighting applications in classical, stand-up kata.

But, trying to force-fit historical connections where there do not seem to be any is deceptive.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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