Again, the basis of the argument: In Nagamine's book (which the title chapter was re-interpreted in English versions from "Sumo" to "Tegumi" for reasons unadressed and with no one taking responsibility - I know this because I asked), Nagamine mentions having engaged in an Okinawan form of backyard wrestling (play roughhousing-type grappling, the Okinawans called 'tegumi', lower-case 't') during his childhood years.

Nagamine then mentions he did extensive research and has reason to believe the custom is related to a predecessor which influenced Okinawan Sumo. Then the rest of the chapter is exclusively about contemporary Sumo masters (not ancient "Tegumi masters" - which seems a bit of an oxymoron term, since 'Tegumi Master' would be like saying 'Backyard Wrestling Master').
here is your typical backyard wrestling today (minus the WWF-stuff):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A4sJUM7HIk
just make stuff up as you go and learn along the way what works and what doesn't. everyone does that growing up. Thats the activity that was refered to as 'tegumi'.


Nagamine does not mentioned how tegumi affecting Ti, other than perhaps suppossing it did - and maybe it did - but his research self-admittedly didn't turn up anything solid. Absolutely no connection is made by Nagamine between tegumi and kata.


so the 'evidence' of okinawan tegumi being interpreted from chinese forms is at best, as thin as the fact all three terms happen to be used within one book.

as far as written fact, there you go. Nagamine's book is the only one which has the terms: 'tegumi', 'karate', and 'kata' all within it's bound pages. (prior to 1990's, that I know of)


so if thats the criteria for 'written evidence', then just imagine what else can be cooked up.


btw, that tegumi is no longer 'practiced' what would be really lost? Will people 100 years from now regret that kids today engaging in king-of-the-mountain impromptu wrestling bouts, haven't documented their efforts in a technical sense?

Thats basically the hype on 'Tegumi'. it's being sold with a romanticized image using a foreign term, but is more likely a collection of here and there modern wrestling drills.



if we use cultural practices as a basis of argument, there is ALOT more supporting evidence that more than a few Okinawan karateka also studied Odori (folk dancing) and the connections to their kata. So why aren't people having $500 folk dancing seminars showing the connections to their kata? reason: it doesn't sell as well as making the connection to wrestling (especially post-1990's).


Can it's selling power be a legitimate reason to push or pull on historical connections, by providing what people want to learn and luring them with attractive romanticization? From a historical standpoint it's bogus - from a training standpoint it may very well be great stuff.


Just because it's great stuff, does not automatically give it legitimacy in a historical sense. Is my main point.

I'm not expecting you'd acknowledge a good point even if you were hit over the head with it...so flame away. and hey jude -take a sad song, and make it bet-t-er.

This is a good summary of the origins of karate. it's something to be held in esteem.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/original_five_fighting_arts.htm

It also means to me you should be training in all of these in your base art or it needs improvement. Replace kata with lockflows, randori as applicable etc.

John Kogas: why are you being such a dishonest dissembler? Your previous good behaviour has been thrown out the window. You don't have a problem with kata, but you don't need to stroke your own ego by making an effete comparison with (what society sees as) feminine dance and then implying kata isn't good for self defence?

I've got no problem with people who shun it and don't do it. But I do have a problem with people who should know better trolling interest forums of practices they have an obsession against.

You are being mednacious or obtuse, or both. Which one John? You know better and can and have discuss MA in a much better spirit. Please do so in the future.

U know I saw this tread and was like not this again, but thought again and was like well let me do a survey at my school with 100 random people that have zero experience in ground fighting. (which is fighting on the ground) I'll give them a diagram of a random kata and ask them if they see any joint-locks, chokes, or anything that might help them if the were fighting on the ground. I'm interested to see the results on this one.

Maybe you can take it up with Pat Mc Carthy who trained in Japan, Okinawa and China for 20 years. I could take it up with Nagamine, but I'll need Shirley Maclaine's help.

already have, and while I respect his work/experience and opinion - I only disagree with the re-use of historical terms that are very easily and popularly construed as historical. It puts into question the motive for using the term in the first place...which the only answer I can come up with is: marketing. eg. "older-sounding" sells better.

Quote:

---

PM: Well, if you’re comfortable with knowing that the term “Tegumi” [‘grappling hands’] is --- in addition to being known as Okinawa’s original form of grappling--- is also the term “I” personally chose to represent a collective body of old-school two-person [kote kitae, kakei, muchimi-di, etc.] drills that I systematized into a cohesive study, I have nothing else to say on the matter. I am not personally interested in arguing semantics.

---

so there's 'tegumi' ...and then there's Tegumi™. got it.

semantics indeed.

this?

(after he explains that the term 'tegumi' is a general term/concept Okinawans use for 'grappling'):

Quote:

---

There is every reason to believe that tegumi, after being enhanced by techniques of striking and kicking, also served as the progenitor of "te".

---

"There is every reason to believe ..."

(which is the same as saying that 'te' probably had grappling - I don't deny that)
Nagamine is considered an authority and I respect his beliefs.


now you have a loose connection between grappling within te, or grappling with strikes and kicks - whichever way you wish to think about it.


Did Okinawan te have kata? or a better question - did tegumi have kata?


how did they ever learn to grapple, groundfight and strike without kata I wonder?