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#252441 - 05/12/06 05:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
medulanet,

BuDoc made this point.
Quote:

Once you learn the concepts or principles, you can apply them to any range . Including fighting on the ground or standing grappling.





That pretty much sums it up,but I haven't been to a karate school where they practice these princilpes on the ground.
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#252442 - 05/12/06 06:19 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Brian, the truth is that you probably won't find many.

I have been studying these principles for over twenty years, but have only been applying them to ground fighting for a little over two years!

Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today.

Those of you that know me, know that I am a traditionalist. Sometimes I'm called a purist. Well, I'm also a realist.

Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. Do I beleive that BJJ players and wrestlers do ground fighting better than karateka? Absolutely!

There are many complete arts out there. There is also huge curriculums that take along time to learn or master that you don't always focus on everything, or only focus on the part that appeals to you.

You have to cross-train. In 2006, you just have to!

Closer to home. ALL doctors are trained to deliver babies and do sutures and remove an appendix. I do suturing every day, could deliver some babies if I have to, but trust me on this: You do not want me to take out your appendix! If everything was picture perfect and textbook, I might do a passable job. Any little thing were to go wrong, you'd probably die from what is considered by any surgeon to be the most simple procedure!

Until 2+ years ago, that was the same story with my ground fighting. Could I do it? sometime passably under the correct conditions. So I chose to specialize. Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. And when shown to me in the right light, I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction.

There you go. Let the stoning begin!

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#252443 - 05/12/06 07:31 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Very very interesting posts. I see that the goals of groundfighting as utilized in karate and tegumi would be very different from that of BJJ. In BJJ your goal is to actively go to the ground and look for a submisssion while rolling around and keeping within the rules. Karate groundfighting I think would be more oriented to downing hte opponent and maintain your standing position, or if you go to ground, fighting as hard as you can to get up and into a strong fighting position with the use of dirty tactics, pressure point fighting, bone breaks and all around mean fighting techniques. The goal is to avoid the ground at all costs and not stay there if you go down, and part of that is not trying to hold the opponent down while on the ground but to get up and finish them standing.
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252444 - 05/12/06 08:57 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Who do you train with in Gracie Jiu Jitsu BuDoc? I currently train with a couple of Relson Gracie's brown belts.

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#252445 - 05/13/06 03:08 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
top post Storm, very nicely put my friend.

Karate is designed for self defence, logically the ground is just not where we want to be as it takes away our prime weapon - mobility.

Budoc and Medulanet - I respect you both as karateka but my question is why take BJJ over training the grappling that already exsists in karate????? Just interested its not a trick question.
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#252446 - 05/13/06 01:41 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I think the reason for that shoshin is because it helps you to learn the mechanics of groundfighting and so oyu can then see similar techniques within the kata as now you are familiar with that aspec of combat. It's sort of like cross referencing I guess.
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#252447 - 05/13/06 03:04 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
As I was instructed on the basics of grappling in karate most of my instruction lacked the physical training and finer points of wrestling/grappling necessary to be effective against a skilled submission grappler using my wrestling skills. Even though I can do pretty good due to my wrestling background wrestling on the street with submissions allowed leaves a lot of holes in folk style(american high school and college) wrestling. Although there are submissions and groundfighting in kata the best way to learn such is to receive instructions from the experts. It takes more than just techniques to fight. In addition I always wanted to get into submission wrestling even before I knew anything about "real" karate. This is my chance to have some fun, tap some people out, and resurrect a not so old man's teenage dreams.

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#252448 - 05/13/06 03:37 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
One thing to keep in mind though is that the goals, and mechanics of GJJ and karate grappling is quite different. Just like with wrestling vs. BJJ, which causes me trouble sometimes. Different rules and targets and stuff.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252449 - 05/13/06 07:09 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Fair enough and nicely put Medulanet, not my cup of T but whatever floats your boat friend!
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#252450 - 05/13/06 07:26 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Stormdragon, strategies of fighting different yes, but jointlocking is jointlocking, wrestling ability is wrestling ability, leverage is leverage, etc. Now yes there are differences between the techniques of uchinandi and bjj/gjj, but there are basic skills that are common to all froms of grappling. This is where the emphasis of my study lies. In addition by training against other grapplers and the best submission guys in the game my karate will be that much stronger.

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