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#252511 - 03/30/08 05:16 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
MattJ Offline
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Excellent points, Jim.

Quote:

One of the main problems you have defending your point of view is grappling, on the ground, is mainly concerned with positional dominance to effect a submission,

this can't be transmitted in solo kata, it has to be done with a partner, and no line of Okinawan Karate, that I have ever seen or heard about does train, in this manner with this in mind.




Quote:

but the [edit:karate] strategy is NOT to go to ground or be taken to ground to try for positional dominance


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#252512 - 03/30/08 05:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
shoshinkan Offline
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well I have my moments..................
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#252513 - 03/30/08 05:43 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
The kata angle I am looking at.

I believe certain parts of ground grappling might have been recorded in dance. Why this was? Still looking in to it and getting the proof.

I believe the origins of ti to be related to pankration.

With the weapons that were available at that given time.

The weapons thing might be another contradiction of what is said to have been available at a given time



All things that need to be addressed before anything can be said to be certain.



But as I have stated the scant evidence I have to date tells me that Medulant is correct in his assumptions about grappling in karate.

Simple thing like one person ending up sitting on top of another wouldnt realy require making moves to get dominance. It could be the result of a trip? But the point is there are ways to get out that work and ways that might not work. I think that would have been placed in solo kata. Not just two man drills. Why didint anybody practice such drill that is known about?

Why do certain people in Okinawa make claims? Then another
goes the opposite direction and incorperates forms with the mechanics of ground work? Is he reworking what he knew to have existed


Well, here is what was stated by Hiroshi Kinjo in an interview,
"Many missunderstand karate do for physical education. Over the years many people have confused and mixed the original forms of martial arts".

Notice the term physical education , martial arts and forms?

Time will tell I suppose.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/30/08 06:01 PM)

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#252514 - 03/30/08 05:48 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
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many great karateka beleive elements of old karate are indeed in the classical dances, well Ti anyhow.

if thats so, which I doubt very much then they arn't in the kata are they only kidding.

agreed, this has been done to death now - new evidence is needed to stimulate better conversation on the subject.
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#252515 - 03/30/08 07:12 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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jude -

Quote:

I believe the origins of ti to be related to pankration.




Quote:

But as I have stated the scant evidence I have to date tells me that Medulant is correct in his assumptions about grappling in karate.




ROFL. Wait......your "scant evidence" of pankration's link to Okinawan karate is because medulanet said so?! This is the research you have done?

BWAHAHAHA

And who mentioned pankration in the first place....?

Never mind.
_________________________
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#252516 - 03/30/08 07:49 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
trollytrollytrollytrollytrolly
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#252517 - 03/31/08 06:28 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Read it again Matt, You have assumed wrongly.
The proof of a form of pankration existed on Okinawa has nothing to do with what Medulant stated.

Medulant statements are backed up by the existance of proof that pankration played a roll in the devolpment of ti on Okinawa. You can like it or not.






Edited by jude33 (03/31/08 06:48 AM)

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#252518 - 03/31/08 06:41 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

trollytrollytrollytrollytrolly




S.O.L

You want to mess up an informative thread with childish troll comments ?

Be a brave man and give others peace.

PM what ever it is on your mind ! Bro!!

Back to the topic.
S.O.L . Evidence of pankration on Okinawa isnt in any books .


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/31/08 07:03 AM)

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#252519 - 03/31/08 07:50 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Quote:


Zach, that's the funny thing about logic, not finding something in an incomplete historical record does not prove something false. Now, if it was written there is no ground fighting in karate or kata, then that's one thing. But to state that since you have never seen it nor been taught it nor heard of it mentioned doesn't prove anything except maybe you should dig deeper.




No, the burden of proof is on you guys making the claim, as with anything else we are debating.






This is the problem some of you guys have got. You want others to run around, do research, come up with statements, tell you where it is, so you guys can do what?

Get annoyed?

Given the amount of information posted by guys who know there stuff just on this forum alone should give the information for someone to look further .

So what do some of you guys do who dont know?
winge
Start messing up threads with childish statements .

What do the educators on this forum do?
The guys who know what they are doing?
They post stuff that leads to further research.
And you guys who dont know dont even see it?

Give me a break!! Get some research skills!! I have highlighted the points in case of missunderstanding.

Jude

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#252520 - 03/31/08 08:00 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
oh, i have pm'd you, my thoughts arn't fit for a public forum.

so where is the evidence that pankration influanced ti? if its not in books, where have you fond a connection? both zach and i have asked you 3 times now between us, i'd love to hear this one.
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