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#252421 - 05/11/06 02:25 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
BuDoc, I agree it is all about intent. That is why when I look at Okinawan karate I consider its orginal or classical intent as I have learned it. I have not learned it to be a civilian method of defense, but rather the art of the royal bodyguards. As such although striking is still the primary focus of the art as well as staying on your feet, there is also a great need for grappling in this role, and the classical kata fill this need. While there is no need to "pull guard" and fight from one's back, there is a need to escape from a mounted position, and use the guard to keep from getting pounded and escape. There is a need to know submissions to take prisoners if necessary to negotiate with an attacking force. There may be a need for hold downs to pin an attacker so the king and/or regents can escape from attackers. Again, there is a variety of grappling in karate. Funakoshi shows serveral grappling applications in a book he wrote in the twenties, and there was much that Funakoshi did not know, but he did know the basics, which includes several grappling applications. Now if funakoshi knew judo or jiu jitsu this may make sense, but he did not, he knew karate. Shoshinkan your are right we will have to agree to disagree, but I personally know of no fighting art past or present used in real combat that does not address all ranges of fighting.

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#252422 - 05/11/06 06:53 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

.....I personally know of no fighting art past or present used in real combat that does not address all ranges of fighting.





And whether it does so effectively is another thing entirely.



-John

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#252423 - 05/11/06 05:29 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:



And whether it does so effectively is another thing entirely.




And there is only one way to determine that.

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#252424 - 05/11/06 06:16 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Medulanet,

you always make a good point and I have to say that I do see where you are coming from, perhaps the comments on emphasis is a more sensible awnser.

But my expierience is that the 'grappling' element of karate comes from 2 chief sources tegumi and tuite (chin-na), with the chin-na being 'locked' in the classical kata. my research of chin-na shows no groundfighting applications,

however I have to admit that there is likely a ground game as part of tegumi - I just havent found it or been shown it at this point so I dont see it, and it definatly isnt in classical kata.

So we are basically saying the same thing outside of the jujutsu element being significant/present in karate.

Good conversation this.

Re the art being for the royal guard or village style, different people see different things, I see karate as being suitiable and used by both,

however Te seems to have been reserved for the upper class, aristocrats - thats another thing that I dont see in karate kata as im told that whilst everything has similarities Te is distinctly different in movement from karate - an aikido like movement with significant historical military weapons emphasis.

But of course in the melting pot they all have significant cross over so its difficult at best to be 'certain'.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#252425 - 05/11/06 09:00 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shoshinkan, you are right, Te is different from karate, but te is one of the components of karate. The classical styles of karate have maintained this connection. One thing that helped me see the groundfighting connection in karate was to actually study BJJ and imagine Naihanchi technqiues both on my back and lying on an opponent on my stomach. I think it is very difficult to see this with no ground fighting training. I also believe that the tegumi/okinawan sumo had groundfighting techniques and most of the forefathers of karate had extensive wrestling/grappling training which complimented their karate. I also believe this training influenced their kata and is infused in the kata they passed on. However, there is one kata, Gojushiho, which I have learned is actually an entire family system of Udundi which is palace hand or the fighting techniques that the royal bodyguards used. Now this is true of the Matsubayashi version which Nagamine preserved. Is it true of the others I do not know. However, this kata contains several locking and restraining techniques for use standing and on the floor which are of course followed up with striking take your opponent out. I personally believe due to karate's connection with Kodokan Judo via Funakoshi and the fact that many early pioneers of karate studied Judo the reason most karateka do not practice or know of karate's grappling aspects. You don't need grappling from karate if you know judo. Karate's groundfighting is not as extensive as say BJJ, but the basics are there. Again I truly believe this is largely due to the Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu that is a part of karate. Along with the sword handling techniques comes the jiu jitsu of the Satsumas. It is this jiu jitsu along with some of the tegumi/okinawan sumo which make up okinawan karate's groundfighting. Again, it may not be present in all styles of okinawan karate, but Nagamine's style as we like to put it "has it all." I believe that there were different styles taught by Nagamine using the same kata. After World War II Nagamine saw the effect of extreme violence and wanted to use karate to promote peace, hence his karate do. However, there were some taught by Nagamine who were shown much of the true intent of the kata. However, he learned karate from Iha Kodatsu initially which contained Naihanchi of Uku Giko which is a lineage independent of Itosu. Wankan, Rohai, Wanshu, and Passai were that of Teruya. Then Kyan's Chinto and Yara Kusanku were taught by Kyan's most favored student Arakaki who died prematurely in the 1920's. These teachers of Nagamine were taught in Okinawan karate's original methods and Nagamine dedicated his life to preserving their karate. This he did and it is a complete art make no mistake.

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#252426 - 05/11/06 10:23 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I have Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karatedo" and in it for kumite he only gives the most superficial and common applications which you could get at your average dojo or dojang. When he discusses the purposes of the various techniques in the book, he again gives only the most superificial and often impractical uses. Such as the high block, low block, or middle block as "blocks" or the reverse punch with a full chamber as just that, a punch while leaving oyur whole body open. Why is that?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252427 - 05/12/06 12:07 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
excellent question. I don't doubt Nagamine, I just never understood why he never wrote anything more in-depth on the technical aspect of his Art. He did plenty of research in the History and Philosophy of Karate...if his books were meant to just touch on the most basic of basics, why include movements to advanced kata?

personally, I think he and other authors of his age (Mabuni, Funakoshi, Miyagi, ...) displayed one thing...but taught/practiced another.

I'm starting to see how everyone eventually ends up with 2 versions of each kata for example. There is the 'standard' kata, and the 'customized' kata. When you see/develop a customized kata, it reflects the personal interpretations (application) and many of the interpretations combined with eye movement, tempo, etc show more clearly the person's personal intenet within the movement.

when you DON'T want to show that, for whatever reason, you demonstrate the 'standard' version.

one good reason to teach a vanilla version is that you'd want everyone to find their own way and not just copy your interpretation...that searching is part of the process of learning at a deeper level. Non-kata styles have a similar learning by searching notion, althought the methods are different.

as far as groundfighting...I've just recently started to take a closer look at it. no doubt some kata principles are transferable to ranges, but I need a better feel for it before I can comment.

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#252428 - 05/12/06 12:08 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
A few things about Nagamine's book in regard to kumite. One look at the seven principles of kumite. Those are in fact the classical applications of karate. They may seem superficial because you do not understand them, but karate is actually very simple. In shorin ryu we train to shift our bodies out of the line of fire so we are in position to attack. To aid our attack we will hopefully have distracted and or immobilized our opponent to aid in our striking and introduce him/her to the ground very quickly. Second Nagamine's book is a rough guide and overview of okinawan karate for the beginner. It was never meant as an advanced teaching tool. For advanced instruction seek out a qualified instructor. Nagamine was a humanitarian who valued self improvement and peace over the brutal practice that okinawan karate once was. His book was the culmination of this life's work. His book is an oxymoron in a way. It depicts the classical kata of karate which contain brutal methods of self preservation and he uses them to propogate world peace and humanitarianism. Just because we want to learn 50 ways to destroy the human body does not mean that is what Nagamine wanted to teach. And just because Nagamine did not teach these finer points of Matsubayashi to most of his students doesn't mean that was not what he was originally taught.

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#252429 - 05/12/06 12:22 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Great answers, thanks. I've been wondering about that for quite some time.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252430 - 05/12/06 12:40 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
We really need to define what groundfighting is here. It's basically 'fighting on the ground'.
Does anyone here practice their kata on their back? LOL Wouldn't that look funny. I agree that alot of kata techniques can be used on the ground,but it's true that the bunkai you learn should adapt to any situation and are not for specific attacks. Does that mean that kata is groundfighting, come on now. Who are we kidding here? The two are not related at all in my mind. At least not until MMA competetions came along. Then all of a sudden...ooohhhhh kata has groundfighting in it!

Even if it is who here practices groundfighting in theri karate class? Besides me ofcourse. I haven't been to a karate school yet that did that.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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