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#252411 - 05/10/06 03:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Victor Smith]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Well that fits then, thanks.
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#252412 - 05/10/06 04:47 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: CVV]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
as far as im aware the chi-na aspect of the classical kata does not deal with us going to ground, however it does deal with us putting our opponent down and locking them in place, ie if they get up or move to much - snap...........

I teach 3 'grappling' tactics at my dojo, one against the shoot, 1 against the mount, and one against being down and kicks coming in - its fair to assume that these are likely street scenarios if ones technique has failed - they are used when the other stuff fails, bit like the hard blocks debate this.

tegumi is very difficult to obtain good information on, however there is a rather interesting chinese art im looking into, but if we think of school boy wrestling in the playground then were not far off IMO.
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#252413 - 05/10/06 05:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Karate does have groundfighting techniques which are somewhat similar to those found in jiu jitsu. You must remember that Jiu Jitsu techniques of the Satsuma Clan is one of the arts that formed the orgininal karate. It is just the strategy that is different not the actual techniques. If I am mounted I will use similar techniques to reverse it. If someone has me in their guard I will pass it so I can pound them, lock them, or get back to my feet. Look at naihanchi for the great majority of karate's groundfighting methods. I heard of a tax collector, Teruya, I believe who was a teacher of Kosaku Matsumora who was trapped and pinned to the ground who used karate to "shake" his attackers off and eventually throw them off of the boat they were in. To say karate does not contain fighting in all ranges of combat is ignorance of its classical usages.

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#252414 - 05/10/06 06:23 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
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Loc: UK
Quote:

Karate does have groundfighting techniques which are somewhat similar to those found in jiu jitsu. You must remember that Jiu Jitsu techniques of the Satsuma Clan is one of the arts that formed the orgininal karate. It is just the strategy that is different not the actual techniques. If I am mounted I will use similar techniques to reverse it. If someone has me in their guard I will pass it so I can pound them, lock them, or get back to my feet. Look at naihanchi for the great majority of karate's groundfighting methods. I heard of a tax collector, Teruya, I believe who was a teacher of Kosaku Matsumora who was trapped and pinned to the ground who used karate to "shake" his attackers off and eventually throw them off of the boat they were in. To say karate does not contain fighting in all ranges of combat is ignorance of its classical usages.




Medulanet,

You of course have your views, which I respect, however I firmly disagree on this - naihanchi is the prime delivery system of tuite (chin-na) and this is not about groundfighting, of course we can 'work' groundfighting back into kata of that im convinced - and fair point if thats what you do or have been passed.

Your point re the jujutsu is a good one, however I dont see that in the classical kata, perhaps drills that havent been passed on? Or perhaps not at all. jujutsu doesnt work kata as karate does as far as im aware?

The problem is its not just my view but also that of several significant Seniors of mine, im not being ignorant its just my belief at this point based on the expierience of people i know and respect, it could change.

So we should just agree to disagree and move on, we have some good chats afterall!

Re old masters shaking off several attackers on boats.....no comments.
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#252415 - 05/10/06 06:31 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I guess the fact of the matter is, kata can be used for just about anything you can come up with and goes as far as your imagination can take it, as long as the mehtods work. It's very gray, not a black and white, yes or no kind of thing. As I said before to each his own.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252416 - 05/10/06 06:33 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Shoshinkan,

Nagamine writes a whole chapter on tegumi with legendary masters from the past and descibes some famous fights. There was more to it than a bit wrestling as I understand it. Looking at the tactics and techniques frm Sumo(only reference I got) it should be pretty advanced. Good luck on your research.

Your right about your assumption on the street scenarious in my opinion(been in the 3 situations). When multiple standing people start kicking while your on the ground though, best tactic is to protect face/throath/chest and groing and if possible try to turn so that they stand in each others way and then counter the first and get up. But you are going to get bruised (especially when they are wearing haevy boots). This tactic is part of the drunken man techniques I've seen. It is said that these drunken man forms also had an influence on the development of toudi/karate.

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#252417 - 05/10/06 06:46 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: CVV]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
It seems like everything has had an influence on Toudi/Karate.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#252418 - 05/10/06 06:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Of course kata can be used for whatever we wish it to be.

however if we claim 'authenticity' then we need to try our best to research historical evidence and clues (difficult) along with the expierience of our Seniors and a great big dose of reality, this can lead us to far more proberble awnsers.

But ultimatly if one is happy with what their kata studies show then who am I to argue, I have been wrong about many things, many times!!!!!!!!!

But im happy
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#252419 - 05/10/06 07:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: shoshinkan]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I thimk it is all a question of intent.

When you look at a grappling specific art, lets say BJJ, your intent is to take someone down, wrap them up and hold or submitt them. Does tha mean that a BJJ practioner can not punch or kick and fight while standing? Of course not. But is intent is normall y the former.

Okinawan karate is a differnet intent. I want to get in close and use tuite or kyusho techniques. If I am taken down my intent is to be able to counter a hold, escap and get to my feet(not me in particular, I take BJJ but you get the idea) to fight while standing.

It's all where your focus lies.

Page
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Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#252420 - 05/10/06 07:46 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BuDoc]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Excellent goal Budoc, the goal is the deciding factor in what techniques are used and the tactics and structure of the techniques. Thanks for the input.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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