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#252551 - 04/01/08 11:14 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Guys, the fact that it can't be explicitly disproven doesn't (1) make it true or (2) make it worth serious consideration that there was any kind of formally trained submission style wrestling in Karate.

If you could find real, incontrovertible evidence that it was there then you would have something to debate. If you could find that evidence I think everyone would be receptive, but my feeling is you cannot.

Mark, we all know there are takedowns in Karate where one might end up on the floor, the contention here is whether or not there is submission style grappling in Karate, and it's moved on to whether or not this is proved by the little bit that's been written about Ti.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/01/08 11:15 AM)

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#252552 - 04/01/08 12:02 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Guys, the fact that it can't be explicitly disproven doesn't (1) make it true or (2) make it worth serious consideration that there was any kind of formally trained submission style wrestling in Karate.

If you could find real, incontrovertible evidence that it was there then you would have something to debate. If you could find that evidence I think everyone would be receptive, but my feeling is you cannot.




My feeling is it can be. Proven that is. Time will tell.

Quote:


Mark, we all know there are takedowns in Karate where one might end up on the floor, the contention here is whether or not there is submission style grappling in Karate, and it's moved on to whether or not this is proved by the little bit that's been written about Ti.




This is a guy who trained with quite a few of the masters at that time.


Quote from an interview with Hiroshi Jinjo who would now be about 88 years old. The karate I practice is made for physical education . Over the years many people have confused and mixed the original forms of Martial Arts .

Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.

My thoughts
Combat should take the form of learning to fight from all positions. Standing, kneeling, ground fighting and anything in between all of the above. It would be bad not to.

Physical education (PE) is the interdisciplinary study of all areas of science relating to the transmission of physical knowledge and skills to an individual or a group, the application of these skills, and their results.

Its physical education therefore parts trained for combat could be removed. Including things like ground fighting techniques etc.


original forms= kata.
Mixed the original forms?
Mixed up?
Changed?
Removed certain techniques?

So it is still to be proven.

Quote:


in Karate, and it's moved on to whether or not this is proved by the little bit that's been written about Ti.
Quote:



Going back somewhat to where I am concentrating.

Pankration and ti? It seems Pankration itself had a form of its own set "drills"? Included in the "drills" was striking grappling and ground work.



So at some time in the future if I can establish beyond some doubt the link of early ti to pankration?

Time will tell.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 12:36 PM)

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#252553 - 04/01/08 12:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Quote from an interview with Hiroshi Jinjo who would now be about 88 years old. The karate I practice is made for physical education . Over the years many people have confused and mixed the original forms of Martial Arts .

Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat.

My thoughts
Combat should take the form of learning to fight from all positions. Standing, kneeling, ground fighting and anything in between all of the above. It would be bad not to.

Physical education (PE) is the interdisciplinary study of all areas of science relating to the transmission of physical knowledge and skills to an individual or a group, the application of these skills, and their results.




Thanks for the completely unrelated quotes, Jude.

Quote:

Its physical education therefore parts trained for combat could be removed. Including things like ground fighting techniques etc.




Could be? Great. Where is your proof? There could be rainbow fairies dancing on the surface of the sun. Haven't seen anyone disprove it yet.

Exagerating, yes. But I hope you see my point that assuming things or taking LACK OF evidence as proof of existence is p1ss poor logic.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252554 - 04/01/08 12:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Why would he make out the difference?
why state the forms were mixed up?




Anyhow that isnt proof, that is some one indicating changes might have been made to kata.

You guys are going to need total proof.
Will be some time in coming.
It will come though.

Though so.
The 5 animal hands in Tensho, snake, crane, tiger, leopard and dragon.
Moving ahead to my limited knowledge of certain kata. There would seem to be snake involved in certain kata being discussed. Snake would indicate to me ground fighting.

A whole heap of ground fighting. Time will tell

I await in ernest.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (04/01/08 12:46 PM)

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#252555 - 04/01/08 01:51 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

med says: if we do agree on that, then the following question comes up: if Okinawan masters were already skilled grapplers/strikers and overall fighters - why import Chinese kata?




This usually happened when the okinawans felt they had something to learn from what the chinese taught. It is important to understand that okinawan kata are lessons on chinese fighting methods to which the okinawans added their own principles. Think of the stories where a chinese man was ship wrecked and an okinawan was unable to defeat him. He then learned his fighting techs developed a kata based on them and passed it on.

Quote:

Think of the year xxxx when the first Okinawan Master imports a Chinese form - if fighting knowledge comes before kata formation...then why import someone elses kata, when you can just build your own experience into your own form?




Again, see above. Get out of the learn a kata and learn how to fight mentality. The katas are based on fighting techniques and application training. Then those principles are developed into a kata.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#252556 - 04/01/08 02:07 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

school yourself on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies




That's great Ed, but that is void of actual practice. You can school me on fallicies and I can school you on kata applications. But wait, I have been all along.

Quote:

but just as I don't verbally debate on a mat, I don't use 'gut feeling' as a basis for historical evidence in a forum argument.




Again, no gut feeling, just practice.

Quote:

you can't really give page numbers as references, then on the next post take the cop-out answer as basing your historical argument on your mat expereince.




Is it a cop out as well to ask for references from someone who does not base his practice from the pages of a book and then chastise him for giving you what you requested?

Quote:

sorry. doesn't hold water. you contradict your your own credability.




Credibility where? Here? On this board? With you guys? And how does that exactly affect me? The fact of the matter is you guys don't believe what I say anyway. Either you don't think my training and fighting is any good (and that is good for me because I will be taken lightly skill wise) or maybe you do think my training is good and then I have not lost any credibility, right? Oh, you mean if I am trying to sell any books or videos. Sorry, not yet anyway. But that is your main concern, right?


Quote:

I take it the historical argument is laid to rest (in that there IS no historical basis for connecting groundfighting to kata), and you now wish to change the focus to your personal feeling/experience? thats fine, but lets be clear of the difference.




Actually Ed that was always my focus. Then you guys asked questions that I answered. Silly me. Its really up to you to lay it to rest or not. If you ask the question you will get the same answer. I thought you would remember my answers and stop asking the same questions over and over again. Oh well, what else should I have expected?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#252557 - 04/01/08 02:30 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Credability on here is proven every time you guys lock horns and argue. If you guys didnt know your stuff these arguments wouldnt reach the intensity and depth they do.

I personaly think when this thread stops it will be brought back in the future when new points are brought up providing it doesnt get personal and the thread gets locked.

Another quote from another Okinawan guy who said so.

"It is difficult to understand karate with out understanding the life and history of Okinawa".

That to me means not just karate study but to study how Okinawans lived. From year dot to present day.

Jude

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#252558 - 04/01/08 03:40 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Credibility where? Here? On this board? With you guys? And how does that exactly affect me? The fact of the matter is you guys don't believe what I say anyway. Either you don't think my training and fighting is any good




*lassos med, and drags him back to the topic*

See, statements like that are the problem. You have totally, 100% changed the question from "Do we believe med about the historical connections between kata and groundfighting" to "Do we think med's training is bad".

The overall opinion seems to be that the historical connections you have put forth are not substantial enough to make your case. This does not mean that anyone thinks you are stupid or inferior, etc. It just mean we disagree about that point.

Your training sounds good, although video would be nice.

So quit trying to change the subject.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252559 - 04/01/08 03:48 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
now you are just outright being dishonest.

arguing historical references are for the forum...arguing actual technique is for the mat.

so, in effect you are displayling that since you can't win a debate of logic and historical facts, then you resort to "proving" your historical correctness on the mat.

thats laughably transparant and is eqivalent to proving a technique on the mat, by telling your sparring partner to turn to "Nagamine's book Tale's of Okinawa's Great Masters page 138."

you may have H.S. varsity wrestling in your Karate on the mat, but you have no historical argument on a forum.

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#252560 - 04/01/08 04:36 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I think people are running out of ideas and getting tired.
From my perspective there are no winners or losers. You two are both clever in your own right so how about calling it a draw untill further evidence appears other wise this argument will go no where other than getting too personal.
.

So it is back to fact finding.

Thread could re open at another date.

Jude

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