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#252461 - 03/27/08 07:02 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.

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#252462 - 03/27/08 03:34 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually JKogas, the way most people view kata and demonstrate it they are only showing the "snapshot" version of it where the real karate is in the transitions against resistance and to the ending postures or poses.

Oh, by the way, how's the ballet going? Strange though, it doesn't seem to fit you, but to each his own.
_________________________
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#252463 - 03/27/08 07:05 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Nice medulanet, very nice. Coming from someone who still can't prove a darn thing about his position on the subject, yet still gets his panties in a wad if you say different, nice.

Now John, Mickey Mouse has always been in the clouds, even before Mickey Mouse existed!! The Okinawans had little cartoon figures for the little ones dammit!!!!!!!

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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#252464 - 03/27/08 10:14 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.




What BS.

What a weak and pathetic attempt to bolster the positive feelings you have towards your own fetishes. (Kata is evil and must be wiped from the face of the earth and any counter moves to grappling takedowns are heresy).

Kata is good enough for Bas Rutten. Mo Smith never did it. Good kata is effecitve. Each to his own. Capisce?
_________________________
It takes a village to stone somebody to death.

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#252465 - 03/28/08 02:00 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Nice medulanet, very nice. Coming from someone who still can't prove a darn thing about his position on the subject, yet still gets his panties in a wad if you say different, nice.

Now John, Mickey Mouse has always been in the clouds, even before Mickey Mouse existed!! The Okinawans had little cartoon figures for the little ones dammit!!!!!!!






BrianS, I know you like fantisizing about my underwear, but a public forum is not an appropriate place to do so.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#252466 - 03/28/08 05:59 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Mark Hill]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
medulanet wrote
Quote:

Actually JKogas, the way most people view kata and demonstrate it they are only showing the "snapshot" version of it where the real karate is in the transitions against resistance and to the ending postures or poses.

Oh, by the way, how's the ballet going? Strange though, it doesn't seem to fit you, but to each his own.






Mark Hil wrote

Quote:


What BS.

What a weak and pathetic attempt to bolster the positive feelings you have towards your own fetishes. (Kata is evil and must be wiped from the face of the earth and any counter moves to grappling takedowns are heresy).

Kata is good enough for Bas Rutten. Mo Smith never did it. Good kata is effecitve. Each to his own. Capisce?





Both of you guys have missed the point. In a nutshell, I was saying that kata is about as effective a tool for skill development as is Ballet. They are both forms of dance. Yes that is my opinion, which is inarguable.

However, Mark Hill, Iíve never once stipulated that kata should be wiped from the earth. Thatís your nonsense. But I wouldnít lose a minute of sleep if it were. Of course everyone has the freedom to choose how they train. Isnít that great? Just like I have the freedom to express my point of view. Youíve heard it before and will LONG continue to hear it, hallelujah and amen to that.

If you guys like kata, that doesnít bother me one iota. You guys can do kata until youíre BLUE in the face for all I care. Knock yourselves outÖ.you wonít be knocking anyone else out (in the process).

-John

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#252467 - 03/28/08 06:38 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
All my comments come are my thoughts from my studies thus far.

Quote:

I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.




Hi John.

You have your excellent and indeed valid points on training. But if I am correct and the origins of ti are correct then it looks like you have been using principles/techniques that are in kata/ hidden in dance forms/ movements in your training.

You might not like to hear this or it makes you feel realy bad but it it the way it is.

Can I suggest you think of it this way.
You have learned to fight in a specific way, and your more than likely good. But you cant do it forever. Age comes to us all. Now in this day and age we have video. In days gone
by they didint. So because they either had to or just did do it was recorded in kata/ dance form. Silat does the same thing.

So realy you are doing techiques found in kata. Except you dont do the solo form.

Some Some of the proof that leads to this thought process by the way has nothing to do with karate or speculation or written works( although written works do play a part). It is there.





Mark Hill
What BS.

What a weak and pathetic attempt to bolster the positive feelings you have towards your own fetishes. (Kata is evil and must be wiped from the face of the earth and any counter moves to grappling takedowns are heresy).




I think your wrong in your assumption. If people didint dispute things like John does then everybody would just follow someones say so.
Which is also wrong but the way certain strains of karate were taught, and in the main it was taught incorrectly.
No analytical thought needs to be given if a person just does as they are told.

Brian.
Quote:


Nice medulanet, very nice. Coming from someone who still can't prove a darn thing about his position on the subject, yet still gets his panties in a wad if you say different, nice.






By the nature of his training in wrestling gives him the knowledge to see what he does in kata. Doubtfull if early Okinawans were using cartoons. They would be to busy surviving.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (03/28/08 07:10 AM)

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#252468 - 03/28/08 07:50 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

I remember sometime back where someone posted a picture of Randy Couture (I believe it was) and the same identical position that he had, found within a kata. Mind you, it was a snapshot in time, but the same exact movement was found in the kata picture that the wrestler was using.

What the original poster might not have realized is that the same identical movement could also be taken as a snapshot from dance or BALLET!!

What does this mean? Absolutely nothing. I just think it's interesting. I also see Mickey Mouse in the clouds sometimes.



The argument is valid and the humor is much needed in this section.

if we take away the 'rosetta stone'-like status/assumption that many put on kata and just look at it for what it is: forms of unknown origin...then I think they do serve a training purpose.
They inspire to try something (in 2-person work) which may not have occurred to the person otherwise. Thats a double-edged sword though, since it's possible to imagine impractical application and continue training it as theory. On the plus side, it opens up the mind enough to explore other arts....a student learning groundfighting/judo/boxing/JJ/etc from kata principles is likely doing so as a result of their predicessor's crosstraining. since they weren't there to witness the added influence, as far as they know and believe, "it's always been in the kata".
some have crosstrained in groundfighting arts since the 1990's - is it any wonder they wish to argue that "its always been in the kata"? plucking out statements from past masters saying they backyard-wrestled as kids is the basis of argument for explaining why, for example, karateka now see reverse-kimoras in kata?

It's not giving credit where it's due. instead, for some reason, people place kata on a pedestal which is invisibly propped up by other arts. They wish to create the illusion that the skill came from working the kata, when much more likely, the skill was built by outside influence and applied to kata after the fact.

some see Micky-Mouse in the cloud expressing joy, some see Micky applying a full nelson to an invisible opponent.




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#252469 - 03/28/08 11:29 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jude -

Quote:

But if I am correct and the origins of ti are correct then it looks like you have been using principles/techniques that are in kata/ hidden in dance forms/ movements in your training.




Quote:

So realy you are doing techiques found in kata. Except you dont do the solo form.




Man, I was trying to stay out of this. But these comments are really twisting reality. Fighting techniques did not come from kata - kata came from fighting techniques. The fact that there are techniques in kata has no relevance to JKogas' training at all. Fighting principles may be in kata, but that is not where they came from. Fighting existed long before kata.

These type of "you are doing kata but don't realize it" comments are poor logic at best.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#252470 - 03/28/08 11:51 AM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Well said Ed.

I don't imagine many folks read the thread in it's entirty, I mean befor it reared it ugly head again. I think the "money" post came from BuDoc...


Quote:

Brian, the truth is that you probably won't find many.

I have been studying these principles for over twenty years, but have only been applying them to ground fighting for a little over two years!

Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today.

Those of you that know me, know that I am a traditionalist. Sometimes I'm called a purist. Well, I'm also a realist.

Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. Do I beleive that BJJ players and wrestlers do ground fighting better than karateka? Absolutely!

There are many complete arts out there. There is also huge curriculums that take along time to learn or master that you don't always focus on everything, or only focus on the part that appeals to you.

You have to cross-train. In 2006, you just have to!

Closer to home. ALL doctors are trained to deliver babies and do sutures and remove an appendix. I do suturing every day, could deliver some babies if I have to, but trust me on this: You do not want me to take out your appendix! If everything was picture perfect and textbook, I might do a passable job. Any little thing were to go wrong, you'd probably die from what is considered by any surgeon to be the most simple procedure!

Until 2+ years ago, that was the same story with my ground fighting. Could I do it? sometime passably under the correct conditions. So I chose to specialize. Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. And when shown to me in the right light, I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction.





An honest sincere long termtraditional Karateka with an open mind exploring new venues, adding new competencies, recognizing similar principles. He was able to doit without adjendas or misscrediting while respecting both traditions and embracing reality.

BOOM! There it is.

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