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#252481 - 03/28/08 06:17 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Zach, why would I possibly NEED to prove anything to anyone here? I like to discuss karate and give some insight into why I do what I do and train the way I train. I also like to share information with others. Why do you feel the need to obtain "proof" from me as to why I do what I do?
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#252482 - 03/28/08 06:22 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I guess the difference between the attitude of posts is his honesty of saying that he saw principles a different way in kata after he was trained in BJJ. ...as oppossed to giving the impression that the principles were learned from kata which were handed down untainted from master to master for centuries right to you.




That's just it Ed, when did I say this. The fact is I didn't. I have always maintained that my wrestling experience at 14 allowed me to see the similarites between the karate I was studying and the grappling I was learning. I even said that to understand them it was necessary to study grappling. The difference is I began training karate in February of 1990 and I began wrestling in November of 1990. Therefore my karate and grappling evolved together. So I have always seen the principles they shared. I then discussed my training in no gi bjj for a brief time which confirmed some of the things I had been working on and taught me some new stuff. The thing is this is not an integration of bjj with karate. This is understanding the underlying principles of using specific tools to fight and then applying them. Where have I stated otherwise Ed? Again, this is another example of perceptions coloring an individual's ability to objectively analyze what they have written.

Quote:

one attitude is sharing honest perception and gives credit where it's due; the other tries too hard to legitimize anachronistic systems by gaining outside skill, and then attributing that awareness/skill to the traditional system, in the hopes of proving their point of "it was always there".




Again Ed, where have I stated that I achieved skill only through karate training. I have always said my combative skill was gained through a variety of places including karate, wrestling, football, etc. I just like to give credit where credit is due. How about this. What if I said, " Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. I have been studying these principles for over twenty years. Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today. I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction."
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#252483 - 03/28/08 06:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Zach, why would I possibly NEED to prove anything to anyone here? I like to discuss karate and give some insight into why I do what I do and train the way I train. I also like to share information with others. Why do you feel the need to obtain "proof" from me as to why I do what I do?




I don't know...why do you feel the need to convince us of your opinions about groundfighting in kata?

Don't turn this around as if me or anyone else is attacking you, I don't think anyone has done that.

If you don't care about it at all then don't post about groundfighting in kata. I have great respect for the way you train, I just think if you're going to post about things like groundfighting in kata that you should at least try to qualify it.

Again I don't think anyone has attacked you in any way, why the hostility?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (03/28/08 06:30 PM)

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#252484 - 03/28/08 06:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
medulant,

You made the claims a looong time ago. jood agrees and says it's easy to prove. No one has done so yet.

The burden of proof is on you guys. If you don't want to prove it then how can you argue your point?
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#252485 - 03/28/08 07:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Are you sure? In fact, I can't even make a post without someone who was not even in the conversation jumping in and begin a rant based on the fact that I do not share his same view point.




Med -

I do apologize if I come across harsh sometimes. I am a recovering a$$hole, with the understanding that I will never be completely cured from being an a$$hole.

I would like to reinforce Zach's point earlier about disagreeing with the historical points, as opposed to the training itself. From what I have read, you seem like a well-informed and able martial artist. Your training sounds like good stuff, and I would sincerely and with no sarcasm, be interested to see some video clips. I imagine that your training and mine has more similarities than differences.

Regardless of whether I agree with the kata/groundfighting connection.
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#252486 - 03/28/08 07:58 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I would like to reinforce Zach's point earlier about disagreeing with the historical points, as opposed to the training itself. From what I have read, you seem like a well-informed and able martial artist. Your training sounds like good stuff, and I would sincerely and with no sarcasm, be interested to see some video clips. I imagine that your training and mine has more similarities than differences.





I second that.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#252487 - 03/28/08 11:25 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

medulant,

You made the claims a looong time ago. jood agrees and says it's easy to prove. No one has done so yet.

The burden of proof is on you guys. If you don't want to prove it then how can you argue your point?




For me the proof is in actual application and sound training methods. I research history of karate for fun, but all that goes out the window in application. I never ask my teacher to prove that the application they teach me or technique goes back x number of years. If it works and fits into the training paradigm that they are teaching I take their word for it. Mainly because that is the way okinawan karate was mostly transmited. That is the way I have always been trained. In fact, my teacher laughs at me for coming on here and dropping this stuff on you guys. He said I should use the time for training. I think he might be right.
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#252488 - 03/28/08 11:27 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

What if I said, " Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. I have been studying these principles for over twenty years. Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today. I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction."



and I'd say, "fair enough, glad you are training well."

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#252489 - 03/28/08 11:41 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

What if I said, " Can I grapple today? Bet your a$$. Do I beleive Okinawan Karate to be complete? Yes I do. I have been studying these principles for over twenty years. Had I not been introduced to Gracie Jiu Jitsu, I might not be using the principles on the ground today. I had the concepts and principles all along, I just needed to apply them in a different direction."



and I'd say, "fair enough, glad you are training well."




Okay, lets give it a try.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#252490 - 03/28/08 11:50 PM Re: Kata groundfighting [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Zach, why would I possibly NEED to prove anything to anyone here? I like to discuss karate and give some insight into why I do what I do and train the way I train. I also like to share information with others. Why do you feel the need to obtain "proof" from me as to why I do what I do?




I don't know...why do you feel the need to convince us of your opinions about groundfighting in kata?

Don't turn this around as if me or anyone else is attacking you, I don't think anyone has done that.

If you don't care about it at all then don't post about groundfighting in kata. I have great respect for the way you train, I just think if you're going to post about things like groundfighting in kata that you should at least try to qualify it.

Again I don't think anyone has attacked you in any way, why the hostility?




Zach, here's the thing. Okinawan karate is a complete system. I have been training the principles for ground fighting from the beginning. And because I wrestled for 4 years and then got some submission wrestling training I was able to "see" them. Then I applied the principles of kata to fighting on the ground.
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